Getting Unstuck: The Tools You Need to Accelerate Your Career
Share
More than 100 job seekers, career changers, and community members gathered at the University of Oregon Portland on Thursday, Sept. 24, for a conversation about a feeling most of us know: being stuck.
Hosted by Mac’s List and presenting sponsor the Oregon Executive MBA program, Getting Unstuck: The Tools You Need to Accelerate Your Career featured a panel of HR leaders and executives:
The evening opened with a welcome from Paul M. Allen, Director, Oregon Executive MBA, Lundquist College of Business at the University of Oregon, followed by a panel discussion moderated by Mac Prichard, founder and CEO of Mac’s List.
About Our Guests:
- James Lund, President of ProFocus Technology and Oregon Executive MBA program alum
- Jasmine Tolbert, Vice President, People and Culture at YWCA Clark County
- Marcus Carter, People & Culture, Central City Concern
Transcript
Find Your Dream Job, Bonus Episode 97:
Getting Unstuck: The Tools You Need to Accelerate Your Career
Airdate: November 2, 2026
Mac Prichard:
Four times a year, Mac’s List hosts public events in our hometown of Portland, Oregon.
This allows local employers and professionals to learn from HR leaders and job search experts and make new friends and connections.
We recently teamed up with the Executive MBA program at the University of Oregon to host a panel discussion with experts in hiring, coaching, and job searching.
Here’s a recording of our conversation.
Paul Allen:
Welcome everybody. I’m so happy to have you here. This is the University of Oregon in Portland. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve said the University of Oregon has a presence in Portland. Did you know?
Of course, we’re in Eugene as well, but we’re so grateful to have this campus here. Many of you may already know it, and maybe you’ve already been here for sporting activities with Concordia, or maybe you did your degree here. We’re really glad to be tenants in this neighborhood. We love it.
My name is Paul Allen. I’m the director of the Oregon Executive MBA program here in Portland. And it’s a thrill to be, you know, meeting so many of you. And it’s been so wonderful. They make some new networking connections, and that’s part of what this is about.
Now, hosting and sponsoring an event like this, the Executive MBA program, it makes perfect sense for us with Mac’s List. You may already know this, but Mac’s List has a mission that is to make the hiring process more human, and I love that.
They do that through events like this, community activities, educational resources, and of course, the staple, you know, professional-level job board listings. I love that about them.
And at the University of Oregon Executive MBA program, we aim, and one of our aims, is to make education more human. We empower working professionals with skills, knowledge, and a community that ultimately helps them achieve their goals and to thrive.
And I love being a part of that. So if you’re not familiar, I’ll quickly say Oregon Executive classes happen right here in this building in person. We’re all in person.
So students spend 20 months in a cohort model from start to finish, building a strong foundation in the first year of business essentials, and then they move into their second year to do a strategy-oriented curriculum. And of course, building a network and a community that lasts a lifetime.
So you can get an MBA at the University of Oregon that’s globally recognized right here in your own backyard. That said, I’ll turn the time over to our main event, and with Mac. Thanks so much.
Mac Prichard:
How about a round of applause for Paul, huh?
Well, it’s such a pleasure to be here to partner with the Oregon Executive MBA program at the University of Oregon. They are our presenting sponsor, and it’s been a pleasure, Paul, to work with you, Kit, and all your colleagues.
I also want to thank our other sponsors for the evening, the Vellian Group, as well as our community partners. There are several tables around the room: Portland Women in Technology, the Oregon Entrepreneurs Network, and the Hispanic Metropolitan Chamber.
And if you haven’t had a chance to talk to these people, please do. So how about a round of applause for all of our sponsors?
And I want to give a special shout-out to the staff at Mac’s List, Joanie Wang, Lisa Kislingbury Anderson, and Susan Thornton-Hough, for their great work here tonight. A lot of people say thank you for putting this on. And it’s these folks who do the work. And we also have four volunteers helping us as well. So please join me in thanking Joanie, Lisa, Susan, and our volunteers.
So my name is Mac. I’m the founder of Mac’s List. People often ask me, why are you in the job board business? And the answer is two long periods of unemployment. I cashed the last unemployment check once, and I came within one check of doing it a second time. And those experiences taught me the value of doing what you all are doing right now, which is networking.
You’re getting away from the computer. We want you to visit our website. Please do, but do not spend the majority of your time there because most jobs are filled through referrals and connections.
And the good news is you can create those connections by coming to events like this. And there are many other ways that you can do that. So I started sharing job postings as a way of serving my network because good networkers not only ask others for help.
They serve others without any expectation of getting anything in return. So that’s the spirit that drives these events. We want you to step away from the computer, tell people what you want, where you want to go, and ask for help. And don’t forget to help others along the way.
And when you do that, you’ll have a shorter and easier job search, and you’ll have a much more rewarding and energizing career. So that’s why we’re here tonight. Please visit our website. We’ve also got a career advice podcast with weekly interviews with career experts. We’ve been doing it for 11-plus years. And we do events like this.
Now let’s turn to tonight’s program. We’re gonna hear from our panelists for 30 minutes, and then we’re gonna turn to you, the audience. We want you to ask questions for 20 minutes, and then we’ll have 30 more minutes for networking. Our panelists have agreed to stay after the event, so please go up and talk to them. They expect it, and they are wonderful sources of information.
But remember too, each of you is an expert. You’ve all got a lot to offer the other people in the room. So at the end of the evening, don’t forget to connect with people and find a way to stay connected after you go home. So let’s turn to our panel. I’ll start on my left with Marcus.
Marcus Carter II leads people and culture work at Central City Concern. Throughout his career, Marcus has helped employers in the nonprofit, technology, and other sectors become better stewards of the people, communities, and futures entrusted to them.
To Marcus’s left is Jasmine Tolbert. She’s the vice president of People and Culture for YWCA Clark County. Jasmine’s organization is dedicated to eliminating racism, empowering women, and promoting peace, justice, freedom, and dignity for all.
And to Jasmine’s left is James Lund. He’s the president and managing director of Profocus Technology. And it’s a tech staffing and consulting company. And James oversees the firm’s strategic direction and operations. Please join me in welcoming our three panelists.
Okay, quick read of the room. I’ve three questions for you. Raise your hand if you’re looking for work.
But that’s a lot of hands. Raise your hand if you’re considering a career change. Yeah, maybe thirty, forty percent. And no shame here, raise your hand if you’re feeling stuck. All right. I know what it’s like to be stuck as well.
So let’s turn to our panelists. I want to get your advice about why people get stuck and how to get unstuck. But before we do that, let’s also talk about the economy.
And I want each of you to describe today’s job market in one word. Who would like to go first?
James Lund:
Tough.
Mac Prichard:
Jasmine?
Jasmine Tolbert:
Ooh, I’m gonna play off this. Rough.
Marcus Carter:
Gonna depart from that and just say it is innovative.
Mac Prichard:
Okay. All right. Well, I’m I’m I want to hear more about that, Marcus. Tell us what you mean by innovative.
Marcus Carter:
Yeah, I think, and I mean this in a real way. I have so many friends, family members, people in my community who have made pivots, who haven’t stuck to what their general skill set was supposed to be, and industries, people who have left banking.
I was just coming in here thinking about somebody I worked with in tech who helped lead marketing, who years before that was a kindergarten teacher. You know, and so people are making tremendous pivots and having extreme success. But part of that required them looking at themselves as like a three-dimensional human being.
And it wasn’t just the job. It was like, what do I want to do beyond this? What actually helps bring me joy? I’m sure many of the conversations y’all are having with yourselves, and I’ve seen them do things that, again, six, seven years ago, we didn’t say that was on their roadmap.
And so yeah, it is innovative and, you know, there are multiple things I can go on, but I’ll just stop there.
Mac Prichard:
Okay. Well, let’s go to our main thing for the evening, which is getting unstuck and how to accelerate your career. Jasmine, we had a planning call, the four of us, and we talked about some key points you might want each of you might want to make. And one of the points you brought up is that sometimes people get stuck because they just focus on the job title. Why might that lead to somebody getting stuck? Because they know what they want.
Jasmine Tolbert:
When we think about getting unstuck and finding, like, a new why, sometimes it’s about diving a little bit deeper into the role. So the market is tough, rough, and innovative. And so you may not be able to leave that organization that you’re with currently, and you may not be able to find that title that you are originally that you were originally seeking if you are in the market.
And so with the title that you land or with the title that you’re currently in, how can you dig deeper into that role? How can you do that mindset shift to really think about how, okay, this is the role I’m in, and this might be the role I’m in for a little bit, or this is the role I’ve obtained, and I’m really grateful for obtaining this role.
How can I dive deeper into the different aspects within this role? How can I refine the skill set that I have that I’m bringing to the table here? How can I lean more into these other areas within the role that I’m really interested in? How can I have strategic conversations with leadership around kind of redirecting the way my role is currently going?
And that can help to be sometimes a long-term fix, sometimes a band-aid fix, but it can be something to just kind of reinvigorate in that moment so that hopefully you can weather this really interesting ride that we’re all going through in the economy and the flexibility that’s just not there.
Cause not every employer has the extra dollars for that next title, and a lot of workforces are reducing. So the titles that used to be there just aren’t there. And so just kind of reframing the way that you can dive a little bit deeper or change that trajectory a little bit more in what you do have access to.
James Lund:
If I can just add a little bit, I love that. And I think one of the reasons that that’s so important too is a lot of organizations, the next job that you’re looking for, they’re not necessarily worried about what your past title was.
If you had additional responsibilities, if you’ve leaned into what else you want to add to your responsibilities, you may not get that title there. But when you’re interviewing for the next position, you can actually speak to the things that you’ve now added into your responsibilities and the scope of your work.
Mac Prichard:
Good. Marcus, I know you shared with me that sometimes people get stuck because they get locked into thinking their careers only work one way. Tell us more about what you have in mind, and how can people take the blinders off and see possibilities that might be hiding in plain sight?
Marcus Carter:
Yeah, I just think again, I’ll use myself as an example. Finishing school, I remember I initially got into sales, and that was, you know, a way for me to sort of channel, you know, I haven’t been an athlete and things of that nature. And then I spent about 10 years in recruitment.
And I just thought, you know, I was a recruiter, I was gonna stay a recruiter, you know. But then I got to learn aspects of the business and different functions and what they needed, and started to say, like, hold on, I could work with a lot of different organizations beyond the scope of recruitment.
And I’ve had other opportunities to think about, like, wait, I’m the person speaking to everybody. I’m a half-decent speaker. I have other thoughts. I should, and it just started branching into new things.
But again, as a recruiter and as somebody who has helped others get into it and tons of friends, people just say that. I had to look and think like, what do I deserve?
Mac Prichard:
And how did you do that? How did you step back and see those things that might not have been apparent to you? And because I think a lot of people in the audience might struggle with that.
Marcus Carter:
I’m very fortunate to have been on your podcast in 2020. Right. Just to say, again, I started taking stock of, like, what am I actually good at? Friends, family members, co-workers I’ve worked with, helped me see myself in different ways, and I started to trust that. Right.
I just also had to trust, like, I’m more than just working at a desk. I want to do something else. Many of us experienced that in 2020, whether we were home or struggling to make it in an office and saying, like, I gotta have something else. Right.
Mac Prichard:
So try new things and see what happens. All three of you have done a lot of hiring in your careers. So when you see candidates who follow what Marcus just outlined, what’s going to be persuasive to you w when somebody wants to take on a new role and wants to make that career change that so many people raise their hands saying they’re interested in doing? Who’d like to start?
Jasmine Tolbert:
I can start off. I think it sounds like a cliché because I work for YWCA, but, like, finding out what that person’s why is. Because I will look at a resume and be like, hmm, that’s really interesting. That has nothing to do with any of the things that they apply for. And then if they provided a cover letter, wonderful. Usually I’m a naturally curious person. So sometimes I’ll set up a phone screen, just set one up because I’m like, I got it.
I gotta figure out why this person is applying for this role. But most more commonly, when someone is making that switch, they do have a really great cover letter and they’re connecting the dots for me of like what’s their why.
And they’re talking about the transferable skills usually that they’ve picked up in these other roles that are not common to the ones that they’re applying to. And then they’re telling me about how they wanted to get closer to a lot of the times, for me, it’s closer to their values, and they want to be in a value-aligned organization.
And no, they’ve never been a domestic violence or a sexual assault advocate, but they’re like, I have done this, this, and that that required really strong listening, really strong relationship building, and really, really strong advocacy skills in other spaces. And I wanna get trained and learn how to apply it over here.
Mac Prichard:
Yeah. So talk about your whys, describe your transferable skills, and talk about your values. And James, I know values are something that you look for and encourage people to pay attention to both when you’re hiring and when people are thinking about how to get unstuck in their career.
Why can paying attention to your values, whether it’s in the private or nonprofit sector, help you move forward in your career?
James Lund:
Yeah, I I followed my values early on in my career and I went into the nonprofit sector and I wanted to feel I wanted to feel the impact of what I was doing. And by following those values and being aligned with them, the organization that I trust, I put more work into it.
I think naturally we do our best work when we feel fulfilled. And so for each person, that’s different, and it doesn’t necessarily mean the nonprofit sector, but it’s feeling rewarded and fulfilled for what you’re doing.
And so I think that’s a big piece of it for me. And naturally that helps you kind of feel less stuck, you know, because you’re doing something that’s rewarding. But I do want to touch on translating your skills, and you talk about innovation, and because people who are changing careers, you might be somewhere where you’re not aligned with your values, right?
Or you might want to go somewhere that you are, or you might want to change your career. And I was chatting with somebody before the session, and going into this, I think a lot of people struggle to actually communicate on their resume the things and the impact they had in one job or one title in one organization, and you’re not getting to the interview.
Mac Prichard:
So how do you do that well? Because I meet people all the time who tell me they spend a lot of time on their resume, but it’s not connecting, and it’s leading to them feeling stuck.
James Lund:
Yeah, it’s translating what the impact was in a lot of different ways. And many people see their role or their function as something very specific to maybe that organization or that industry. But a lot of what people do applies across several industries and organizations.
And if you bring back to communicate on your resume the impact of that organization and what you did, that’s how people do it.
Mac Prichard:
So what kinds of impact stand out? And this is all for all three of you. What kind of results and accomplishments do you want to see?
James Lund:
Yeah, and it may or may not be an accomplishment, but it could be something for someone that wants to show their soft skills. This is something I was discussing earlier; it is showcasing how they collaborated across the organization, right?
That’s a difficult thing to show soft skills on your resume. So that’s something that you can do is really think through what you’ve actually done and what impact it had in the organization. So whether it’s measurable or not, there’s a way you can tie that into your resume so they can see.
Jasmine Tolbert:
Sometimes I’ll see folks apply, so they’ll note specific projects that they worked on, and they’ll, in a very creative sentence, do a quick one-sentence summary underneath that area on their resume to be like, this is what I did, and this is how I see it really quickly in your industry. And so that, in addition to the cover letter, is sometimes really nice.
I also want to acknowledge that at my organization, we still do not use AI to go through our applications. And I think that’s a really important thing to say out loud because I’m giving you the perspective of someone who still manually, I guess, which is what it’s called, yeah, manually reads applications.
And I’ve made an intentional effort around that in our org. So that is from that perspective. Just wanting to know that.
Marcus Carter:
Yeah, here’s where, you know, maybe my competitiveness is gonna come out because what are you doing to beat the average candidate for a role, right? Another way of saying this is like, what is your proximity to the institution or organization you’re applying to? Right?
Are you in certain spaces where you’re now networking with people who actually work there? Right? Are you a competitor, or are you positioning yourself that way, right? Like
What again, what is your proximity to the institution you’re applying to? If it is simply applying to the applicant tracking system, the odds are tough, right?
We’ve all been there. Versus, I got a couple of connections. I got people I’ve actually had conversations with on LinkedIn or at said event, and we’ve talked about said problems, et cetera, et cetera. That pushes you further. But if your proximity is just limited to submitting your resume in a cover letter, good luck.
Those numbers go down. And so you do have to figure out ways to separate yourself. And that’s just one way amongst many. Don’t let that one touch point just be, I applied there.
Mac Prichard:
Yeah, I think the most depressing number of all is the applicant count when you look at a job you want. But to your point, Marcus, and this is for all of you, why do referrals and connections matter so much in hiring decisions?
‘Cause you you know, you got three hundred presumably good resumes you could you you you could choose from. Why do so many employers pay attention to the referrals that they get when they do have several hundred applications?
James Lund:
I think you answered it. There are several hundred applications, or there are thousands of applications, and it’s daunting. So as a recruiter, or if you’re on the HR side, it is a lot of time. And so if you get a referral and if you trust that person, I think you inherently you will all you’re you’re going to look at that person’s profile.
So you get past the AI and the applicant tracking system because it’s a black hole for most people. And you’re never going to be seen by a human in many organizations that are using those tools.
Jasmine Tolbert:
I know that my staff is trying to; we are strapped for funds. And so when they can go through the applications and when they can see someone that they have met, either because they chose for my industry, like they chose a volunteer, they decided to intern, or something of that nature, make that intentional effort to get to know them.
For them, it’s also a stress reducer because that’s like, okay, I only have so much to spend this funding on, and I gotta get it right the first time. And so they really value connections because it’s a little bit closer to knowing, like, who they’re bringing through that door.
Marcus Carter:
Yeah, and I’ll say more often than not when I was in tech recruitment, you gave me a referral of somebody who’s working on a similar problem. Right. It was not just like, ” Hey, hook my friend up.”
No, actually, it’s very technical what we’re working on. And so you gave somebody from a competitor or another industry that is working on the same exact thing, but their employer doesn’t know they’re looking. Right. And it was like, somebody who’s already working on this who I have a chance to get.
Great, it’s gonna fit one-on-one. And you likely had some of that dialogue and trading. Here’s what we’re doing, here’s what you’re doing. And so I am mindful that, like a lot of times, a referral when I was in the recruitment seat was people who were again doing the work, and you’re just friends, family sitting around a table talking about, like, I didn’t like how this is going down at my company.
So if you’re interested, I can get the referral bonus. And so again, those things happen more often than not.
Jasmine Tolbert:
Just wanted to also highlight: make sure it’s a meaningful connection, especially if you’re putting someone down as a referral. Unless they’ve given you, like, I mean, it’s always best to get explicit consent on multiple levels. But outside of that, when it comes to a referral, I think it’s important to like have that meaningful connection.
Mac Prichard:
One place I see people get stuck is they know the job they want, they know the employers that offer those opportunities, but they don’t know anyone inside that organization. So what’s your best advice about how to create that meaningful referral and that connection? How do you do that if you’re on the outside looking in?
James Lund:
So we recommend candidates that we work with to actually look at them on LinkedIn, look at the company, look at the shared connections. And who do you know that knows what you do and that you’re good at it, that is connected to one of the people at that company?
It’s very easy to do those searches on LinkedIn. And so that can make a big difference if you can reach out to some people that you know that are connected to some people in talent acquisition or whatever part of the organization that can make an in.
Mac Prichard:
And to Jasmine’s point about how, you know, having an authentic connection, how do you approach those people? What’s the message and what’s the ask?
James Lund:
Yeah, go ahead. What do you say? So, keeping it simple, just letting them know that, hey, I saw this job at this company, and you look like you’re connected to somebody in talent acquisition over there. I think I’m a great fit, and I’d love it if I don’t know what your relationship is with them- but would you be willing to make an introduction?
Marcus Carter:
Yeah, I would just say sometimes people shoot or aim too high, meaning you’re reaching out to higher-level leaders who are absolutely busy, right? They’ve spent 10, 15 years; they’re going home, right? They’re not doing a coffee or anything like that.
But you might find somebody one to two years who is still trying to figure out how to get brownie points, who’s like, you want to meet at 8: 30? I’ll do that, right? And so again, I’m very mindful of, like, with the networking game, sometimes I’ve seen people who are just reaching out to folks who I’m like, I know that, but they’re never gonna get it; they’re busy.
And then there’s other folks who are in the beginning stages who also help round out your understanding of what the institution is, right? Cause somebody at one to two years has a different perspective than somebody who’s been there 10 to 15 years.
Jasmine Tolbert:
Yeah, I was gonna say that most of the folks that I’ve connected with when I needed a job, or most of the folks that have connected with me that I didn’t know, it was because they reached out to that more entry- to like mid-level person at the organization. And then we were a very approachable organization.
So then my staff is like, hey, I’m still getting to know you, but they’ll come, and they’ll tell me about it, or like I’ll reach out to someone. I’m like, I know you interned with them. Is there anyone that you still know?
And like those connections go so much further. And that person usually has, like, a deeper commitment to, like, yeah, I want to help you succeed. And they have a little bit, exactly what he said, the bandwidth.
James Lund:
And I would caution too, like, don’t ask for coffee of the person you’re asking for a referral necessarily, or the hiring manager too. All you’re doing is asking them to look at your application. I think if you’re just asking for a referral or something like that.
Mac Prichard:
How does that help you, James, to ask someone to look at your application? What difference?
James Lund:
So it saves our recruiters time. And so we know how important that time is. And if we can get a shortcut to finding a person that’s qualified and they’re a good fit, then we will always go and look at their profile if somebody points that to us.
So we’ll always go look that you know, but and it’s and it’s worth it because a human probably wasn’t going to see your profile. At least that’s in our industry. It is really difficult to get to the human. Most of it is through AI first, and then it gets lost.
Mac Prichard:
We’ve talked a lot about accomplishments and the importance of talking about impact. And Marcus, I know that you touched on this, but the importance of when discussing your accomplishments, you’re not delivering the same message to different audiences, are you? And w what do you mean by that? And why is it important to keep that in mind when you’re talking about what you offer employers and what you’ve done in the past?
Marcus Carter:
Well, at each stage of the recruitment cycle, people want to hear different things. You know, what a recruiter wants to hear, like at a high level, might just be like, You’ve done this role, and they know enough about the role to be like, ” This person’s not BS-ing me. They’re legit.” Right.
And so they might pass you on to a panel or somebody who is the supervisor, and that person wants specifics. Right? They want to know, hey, you’re not just, you know, getting one-on-one over on us.
And so again, you’ve got to understand that cycle. And I always say you should practice, you know, with either mentors or people in the industry what you say your accomplishments are to make sure that checks the box as an accomplishment in their eyes and with their organization, with their institution.
Otherwise, you might just be having the conversation with friends and family members who are like, “That sounds good.” It’s not getting you to the next level in an interview process, though.
Mac Prichard:
What’s your best advice for how to prepare and practice for those different audiences and to deliver those different messages?
Marcus Carter:
It’s related to, as I initially said, reaching out to some of those folks. I do agree, you want them to look at your application, but there are some folks who are like, Hey, I’ve been here for two years. Here’s what I did.
They’re gonna be fairly transparent with what worked for them. And so there are many people in this room who can say, here’s how we deal with getting around AI, right? And that initial process.
Jasmine Tolbert:
And I think what you’re also starting to kind of get close to, and I’m sure a lot of people in this room have heard or been told this a lot, is finding someone to kind of mentor you.
And when everyone’s looking for a mentor, there becomes a very big shortage of mentors. But it doesn’t need to be the formal mentorship. It could be, hey, I know that you don’t have, like, the hiring power or whatever, this or that, but like are you someone that, like, maybe we can connect with here and there as I’m, like, trying to navigate your industry?
Mac Prichard:
Mentors can come in different forums, can’t they? And play different roles. Can you say more about that, Jasmine? Or anybody on the panel too, but please start.
Jasmine Tolbert:
Yeah, no, I mean, I think about, like, my peer groups and developing those mentors. So it’s like, hey, we’re all trying to make similar moves, and we’re all trying to get to similar steps. The mentor in that moment does not need to be light years above me. It can be my peer, like, ” Hey, you went to that interview. What did that person ask about that’s in the same industry that I’m applying to?”
And then, like, passing on those interview questions. Cause those interview questions, if you can get your colleagues to start sharing what the interview questions are, that’s how you can also figure out what the needs for that organization are.
Because typically you’re basing your interview questions off of some things that didn’t maybe go the greatest in the previous position or because you know where your organization’s going. And so you want to make sure that your org is prepared for it.
So I think that specific group is something that people lean into here and there. But I think in this market and with what’s going on, I think that’s a deeper area where people should really lean into: your peer mentors that are going through the exact same struggle.
So the people in this room with you right now, connecting with each other, not in the like, can you help me get this job? But like, hey, we’re both trying to get this job for two different companies. What are we learning as we’re going through that journey?
James Lund:
I was gonna jump back to accomplishments real quick. Just the and I think part of that process that’s so helpful, at least for me, I’ve done this a lot over my career. It’s really helpful.
And I think most people are not the best at keeping track of them and remembering what you did when that’s coming to the point of applying somewhere, or if it’s actually when you’re in the interview, and you’re being asked for what you did on this project. And so I always recommend I used to just run a one-page document, and I’d just have a long list of accomplishments.
Anything I did, anything I contributed, if there was something measurable, if it wasn’t, it didn’t matter. But I don’t have the best memory, and I’m not going to recall that. I certainly won’t recall it in an interview. And then once it comes to applying to some of these jobs, you can go and look back, refresh your memory on things that you did, and you probably forgot, like, my goodness, I absolutely did something just like this.
I was a part of this project. And this is what the impact was. And so I think that doing that and tracking that is going to help you throughout your process, for when you are applying and you need a call on all these different things that you’ve done depending on what role you’re looking at.
Marcus Carter:
And some people I’ve been in multiple interviews where people are talking about community projects that do give them certain skill sets, and they’re able to amplify those accomplishments even through that. I know some people might be scared of, like, this isn’t in my role, but it’s like, well, the things you’ve done with XYZ community and groups outside of work apply exactly to the work you’d be doing here.
So don’t be afraid to share that. Last thing, I just want to double back on the mentorship piece because we talked about this in the pre-call. And I said, you know, I never had, like, a mentor just in terms of somebody who sat me down and, like, created a roadmap and walked me through different steps.
But I always say that the tech industry, for me at one point, was a significant mentor. It told me that, like, some of the ideas I had around, like, professionalism weren’t wild. Cause who’s this guy on stage who just has jeans and a shirt and runs a whole billion-dollar company.
Right? You can have a four-day work week. Tech companies were doing that before there was a pandemic, right? And so it gave me sort of like permission and validation that my ideas and how I think the workplace could be, it’s not wild. Right?
Like having a cafeteria, having a workout room, all of those things I might have been scared to push other institutions on. The tech industry was already doing it. And it gave me again, permission, validation, comfort to start to raise those concerns.
And now I’m in other industries, and they’re like, wow, this is extremely innovative. I’m like, this is from an article I read six years ago. Companies have been doing this. I’ll take credit for it if it helps me right now.
But again, I’ve always looked at, you know, that industry and say, we- you can look at me as a three-dimensional human being and not just as pure labor, if you will.
Mac Prichard:
Well, we’re gonna turn to questions in a moment, but before we do that, I just wanna ask each panelist, what’s your number one tip for getting unstuck?
Marcus Carter:
Part of it was me realizing I’m tired. All right. This is not actually working. I’m hitting these metrics. I’m doing all these things. Or, hey, this organization doesn’t even have career ladders. How am I going to move up?
Mac Prichard:
Jasmine. Number one tip for getting unstuck.
Jasmine Tolbert:
Yeah, number one tip is definitely: if you have a good support system, lean into them. And if not, then you are your support system, and lean into yourself to figure out what, like, piggybacking off of Marcus, like what feels good and what doesn’t feel good. What part of my day starts to be like, yeah, I can work on that project. And what part of my day says, yeah, I can work on that project.
Like leaning in and getting closer and closer to your center is really important. And I also want to completely go left from that of sometimes job is a means to an end. And so also, how much do I actually need to pour into this role? And am I overdoing a little bit?
And if I am overdoing it, how much of myself from this role can I retrieve back so I can pour it into my actual life? So it might be, yeah, I, you know, I’m an analyst for XYZ Company, but being an analyst for XYZ Company gives me the flexibility to make it to my kids’ games.
That gives me the flexibility to have a really great vacation package so I can go and visit my family afar and do all of those things. So I would say find who you are and what you value and then figure out how the role that you’re going towards or that you’re already in can help you to align with what you want to do.
James Lund:
James. For me, the best thing in my career has been that for over twenty years I’ve done a PDP. So it’s a professional development plan, personal development plan, IDP, individual development plan.
I’ve been doing that a long time. I have a background in HR. I’m kind of a nerd about that kind of stuff. And that was just following that structured process. It’s a five-year PDP, and I lay out all my goals.
Mac Prichard:
What is that acronym?
James Lund:
PDP. Yeah. Professional development plan.
So I would lay out all my goals and just go through the process of thinking through what you want to do in your next five years, what you want to accomplish in your career, also putting personal goals on there too. And some of that costs money, and that ties into what you need to do professionally.
So doing that, following that process was so helpful, helpful for me because it takes you to st it takes you to step back and think through your skills, think through where you want to go with your career, being very intentional and following that process.
I would do that quarterly as well with reviews. I’d review that quarterly with a mentor. Usually it was one of my bosses over the years, but sometimes it was somebody outside an organization. If I wouldn’t do that, if I didn’t want to do it without my boss.
Mac Prichard:
Well, let’s turn to you, the audience. We’ve got my colleagues Joanie and Lisa here. They have microphones. And we ask you to raise your hand if you’d like to ask a question.
And when you do ask your question, if you could share your name, and please stand up when you ask your question. Who would like to go first? I see any hands.
Kate:
Hi, I’m Kate. I’m a career pivoter, and I’m trying to market my transferable skills. And I really like what someone mentioned talking about including a summary in each job, sort of, you know, along with your bullet points about how your transferable skills relate or kind of move into that next industry.
I’m wondering, I guess, for James, do you think that would be appropriate in tech? And is that something that AI would spit out? I’m concerned about that summary not being picked up by AI.
James Lund:
So it, sorry, it might or may not pick it up. I guess the AI is kind of finicky sometimes, but I would say that one thing that’s really important if you’re gonna make a change and you have transferable skills that you want to be really clear about, I recommend people do a frequency analysis of all the jobs you’re applying to that you’re really interested in.
So if that’s in a different industry. So basically, analyze every single job ad. And what are the required skills? What are the requirements that they have? And then go ahead and look at your own experience and what applies, and how you can transfer that, right?
What you’ve done. And then build your resume and your LinkedIn with the skills that are according to the most frequent things that you run into in all those jobs that you’re seeking. Right. And by following that process, I think having the summary is fine, but then making sure you have the important keywords woven into your experience.
And that, like LinkedIn has your top skills selected that are applicable to all of those, it’s gonna help you beat the AI. It’s not just one thing; it’s a collective.
Amy:
I’m Amy. I’m career pivoting from academia to UX research. I’m curious about how it is we should put our community experience on the resume. Like, it doesn’t go under your professional experience; it doesn’t seem like it would. So what do we call that?
Jasmine Tolbert:
Yeah. I think it depends on the role you’re applying to. I’m someone whose community work is why I am quite literally in my job right now. And so when I have applied and when I am applying, it really depends on the company and the role that I’m applying for.
And so I’m thinking about I’m thinking about both applications, my own applications. I’m thinking about a moment where I needed to, like, oversee like a compliance piece or something of that nature.
And I know that I’ve done that in my community leadership around compliance and, like, grants and whatnot that I was applying for. And so I put that under my professional experience, and I said, and I put the my title the organization and the organization itself, whether even if it was volunteer or something of that nature, and then I put in like exactly how I was overseeing those compliance items.
Or even when I –– fun fact, I am not a big fan of recruiting. So I am not a recruiter, but sometimes I’ve needed to stretch to add that into a role. And so being a recruiter of volunteers is something I am an expert in. And so I’ll put that under the professional experience.
Marcus Carter:
Yeah, I would just say continue to find ways to make your work visible, you know, to others, right? There are ways you might help out at Mac’s List or other institutions. It’s like, how are you making sure that your work has some visibility in relation to the institution you’re applying to?
That’s gonna make it a lot more appealing that way. I have and know so many folks are like, I’m doing this and this. I’m like, such and such you’re applying to has no idea. They’ve never seen that work.
Their proximity to it is so far, so distant, it’s easy to spit you out. And so again, like, how do you get closer to that work that that institution is doing? As soon as somebody sees that, there’s gonna be a, well, we’ve got 150 resumes of folks who are not in proximity to this work.
And so I just think there are multiple ways to do, especially what you’re saying with in proximity to some of these institutions.
James Lund:
One real quick practical thing, just on LinkedIn specifically, is I agree with everything that you said. And then, but LinkedIn specifically, putting it in your experience, if it’s really relevant to your role, can be a really positive thing because it could get buried that that community experience can get buried really low on LinkedIn, and recruiters really value their time. They may not scroll all the way down.
So if, at a glance, they scroll real quick to your experience and they see, like, your professional experience, just make sure it’s super clear that that’s just a volunteer or community role. But because it’s applicable to, like, a professional role you’re looking for, I think it’s fine to have it there.
Bridget:
Thanks, Lisa. Hi, I’m Bridget. So, my pivot: I’m a strategic communicator, community storyteller. My pivot was coming out of corporate and nonprofit spaces to run my own business.
I felt that the ATS and the deck were stacked against me coming into a space after being out of that job search for 10 years, and then finding the new A-ism with ageism and AI-ism.
I said, Well, F this, I’m gonna start my own business. Well, now my pivot back is into nine-to-five work because I’ve done this for two years.
For those who like to read cover letters, I believe that was you, Jasmine; you say you like to be curious. Yeah. You’re reading a cover letter from somebody who’s coming from a space of self-employment, own boss. They want a job where they’re going to have a boss.
What are you looking at in somebody who’s coming from a place of self-employment to full-time employment? And they’re like, this person can’t be led. This person probably won’t listen to direction. This person is probably going to leave when they get their next big client.
What are you seeing? How can I tell that story effectively so somebody doesn’t?
Say, you know what, we’re gonna pass on her ’cause she’s gonna she’s gonna leave. She’s just doing this as a next step to her regain and self-employment. Go ahead.
Jasmine Tolbert:
It’s really funny because I just hired someone like that. She’s phenomenal. And what makes her phenomenal is that we knew that we hired her when our organization was hiring for our next CEO, and we’re super excited about it.
And I knew that this person was gonna report to the CEO. And I was like, ooh, okay, you’re gonna get about three or four months with our CEO before she moves across the country.
So I saw that and I was like, okay, I’m looking for who can I see that can be quick to figure things out and who can I see that can be a really independent worker because that’s what’s gonna be needed while we’re in this search process.
And that is what I was looking for. And when we came up to her resume, it was great because I was like, Wonderful, she is a business owner, and she wants a transition back into a nine-to-five.
And the only issue and I tell her this all the time that I have with her every day is that I’m like, hey, you are in a nine-to-five, so you don’t have to work all day. And so I know that she’s a wonderful independent worker, and I know I only need to spend a few minutes with her, and I know that she’s gonna understand all the things going on.
So those are things that I’d be highlighting, especially when you’re thinking about working underneath people that are extremely busy and tapped for time.
Marcus Carter:
I would just say this one. Okay. That is no concession, but I love that you knew what you were looking for. Cause a lot of us are applying to roles and institutions, and they don’t know what they’re looking for, right?
I’ve been a recruiter where I’m like, wait, you just pivoted on the last three people, and now you want this other thing? And so it’s not everybody’s fault that you might be stuck. There are legitimate institutions that you’re like, you’ve been around this long.
And you had no idea what you’re looking for; unfortunately, that does happen more often than not in many organizations. And so again, we shouldn’t have to sort of wear that weight, right?
It does fall on us at times, but I’m very mindful that I’ve been in too many different roles where I’m like, you told me one thing before we launched this role, and now you’re pivoting once or twice.
What’s up? Where you were very clear, like, hey, I need this for these reasons. I saw that and was able to take that.
What, when you were in the tech industry, when you were recruiting, like, what were yeah, I’m asking you a question. What when you saw someone that was coming from, like, a business owner?
Mac Prichard:
Again, but I want to make sure we get to the audience.
Sam:
Hello, my name is Sam. I am pivoting hard from nine years in commercial broadcasting to two years somewhat self-employed doing videography and promotion.
And while some of my skills are transferable, I’ve gone from being a radio board op to being a commercial drone pilot and diving into a brand new world of robotics and legal and airspace and insurance and a lot more public-facing community involvement than I ever had to do before.
So I wanna ask all of you: how do you really showcase previous and present industries when you’re pivoting, and you’re coming from one space over here that might kind of sort of be applicable to this space over here, but your majority of work experience is way back in something in an industry that’s changed or in the process of becoming unrecognizable?
James Lund:
Okay. I would say when you look back at your resume and all your experience, you kind of, to some degree, you scrap everything that you had written about your resume and what you did, and you think about what’s next and, like, what is the next role, and you try to find all the things that are relevant.
Like you said, there are things that are transferable. So just dig into those further, and that’s gonna help you. Not just following that process is going to help you when you’re, you know, having conversations and where you’re going down that path for this pivot, for this hard pivot.
But then that actually is telling a story about all the things that you really did that are relevant and similar because there are so many things that, you know, across industries apply really well. And I think following that process, you might find your way a little bit. They might have something better to say, though.
Marcus Carter:
I think what you said is great. And you said you’re getting into videography. I think that is a industry where there’s so much content online, you kind of get a understanding of where that industry is going.
Like everything is content driven, right? Like this is not only live, but then it’s gonna be broadcast, all those things. So it just makes me think like, how are you keeping up and seeing that trend? And then finding ways to insert yourself in that.
Obviously it’s gonna be difficult because that’s not your background, but you’re at least in an industry where there’s and I only say this because I just started to get into photography photography and then starting to think about videography.
And I’m like, wait, there’s so many ways to to spin this right now. There is a moment where I’m behind the curve and I’m gonna put in enough work where I’m like, okay, I see what the industry is doing now. So it does take time and that.
It’s just a part of the cost of admission at times.
Jasmine Tolbert:
I want to make sure I answer your question clearly. Were you trying to go into it from the angle of like you’re a business owner or from the angle of you want to work for a business?
Sam:
A little bit of both. When I was still employed in broadcasting, my wife and I launched an LLC focused on video production. Initially, I had been doing video here and there for my employer, and then they decided that was too expensive. And so the ladder that I was trying to go for turned out not to be there. And that was very discouraging.
So when we launched the LLC, then we were looking for things in a market that was saturated. We specialize in drone videography, and everybody and their brother is trying to be a drone photographer, as we found out.
We’ve been trying to make some innovative steps to stay ahead of that curve, but I’ve strayed a little bit into the industrial side of it just to have some extra edge. So it is in a strange straddle of being both a business owner and looking for that nine-to-five at the same time.
Jasmine Tolbert:
Then I would say that if your business-owning portion of your life helps to supplement something that sometimes people are not able to afford in this economy, but if you’re able to go in a little bit lower than what you’re initially grabbing towards. So, like, while you are the business owner and you do know how to do it from this, like, really great systemic operational level,
Sometimes it’s okay to be like, let me just go a couple steps lower. So this way you can start to bridge a little bit. Cause technically, you may not be new to understanding how to do XYZ, but you are new to that industry. And so that can be helpful.
Sunrise:
Okay. I think this will be a quick question. My name is Sunrise. And like many of us, some of us have been looking for work for quite a while. And so I’d love any advice or input on when you have a work gap, how long of a work gap? When do you need to address the work gap?
You know, if you’ve been employed for a month, a year, two, you know, at what point do you address that in your cover letter, and any advice on how to do that?
James Lund:
That used to I think, be a bigger issue in our industry, and given where the market has been, I think most reasonable people understand the gap. So it has not been as much of an issue for our clients as you know, as it used to be in the past.
But I’d say that, yeah, if it’s been a while, you can address it just generally, whether it’s you’re making a career change or if it’s in the same industry. So if it is a if it’s a hard pivot, that’s an explainable thing as well.
But otherwise, a lot of people have been pretty understanding.
Marcus Carter:
You know, for me it also just depends on the industry. The way things have changed, technologies and/or just operations. Some folks, you know, the gap can be too great where an employee employee employer is immediately just gonna screen it out.
And again, this is where I would challenge, like, okay, how are you working on your proximity? Whether that’s getting a referral, somebody who’s, you know, cache just goes a little bit farther, and now they’re willing to take a look at you.
And so yeah, I think you always address it up front, though. There’s no hiding it. It’s just addressing it up front and making sure that the skills and/or experiences are still in alignment and not necessarily too far from it.
Mac Prichard:
Okay, so quick follow-up tactic: let’s get really tactical. What do you say in one sentence that explains that gap? What’s gonna work for employers? So do you just say I’ve been doing a job search for six months and it’s a tough market? What do you recommend?
Jasmine Tolbert:
Would say that. I have predominantly women who work for my organization. And so we know that there are a lot of reasons there might be work gaps for a lot of different reasons. And so I’m like, I’m not a good person to answer that. But I am a straight shooter. And I always say, just give the real reason. But I also want to lean on these two.
James Lund:
I would agree with being transparent where you can. And I think that each person has a different situation too. And so, a lot of the people that we talk to, maybe they have something on the side they’re also doing or consulting.
And so just speak to the things you’ve done. If you’ve been developing and investing in your learning, that’s something you can say that, yeah, you’re looking to make a transition into this, or you’re really looking to lean in more to this side of your career.
And so you have been investing in that. And I think saying something like that, at least they know that you’re doing something in addition to your job search.
Mac Prichard:
Thank you so much for the questions. Our panelists are gonna stay. We’re gonna network from seven thirty to eight. So let’s do that, and I hope to talk with as many of you as I can. Take care.
Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job.
You can support our show and help others find it by leaving a review and rating on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Have a question or a suggestion? Email me at mac@macslist.org, or connect with me on LinkedIn.
To make sure you never miss an episode, sign up for our free weekly newsletter at macslist.org/podcasts.
This show is produced by Mac’s List.
Susan Thornton-Hough schedules our guests and writes our newsletter. Lisa Kislingbury Anderson manages our social media and creates our transcripts.
Our sound engineer and editor is Megan Hattie Stahl. Our music is by Freddy Trujillo.
This is Mac Prichard. See you next week.
###