Bonus 90: Skills Communicators Need in 2026 to Thrive in an Uncertain Job Market
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More than 100 job seekers and communicators gathered at the University of Oregon’s School of Journalism and Communication in Portland on Thursday, Feb. 12, for our first quarterly event of the year, Skills Communicators Need in 2026 to Thrive in an Uncertain Job Market.
In this recording of the event, you’ll hear three seasoned communications and hiring professionals talk about what gets candidates noticed, why the story you tell about yourself is what hiring managers remember, and how to stay strategic and hopeful in a difficult job market.
About Our Guests:
- Regina Lawrence, interim dean of the University of Oregon School of Journalism and Communication
Panelists
- Felicia Rivers, founder at Your Talent Ally
- Mark Kajitani, vice president of operations at Meyer Memorial Trust
- Nicole Leverich, senior vice president and chief communications officer at LinkedIn
Transcript
Find Your Dream Job, Bonus Episode 90:
Skills Communicators Need in 2026 to Thrive in an Uncertain Job Market
Airdate: April 6, 2026
Mac Prichard:
Four times a year, Mac’s List hosts public events in our hometown of Portland, Oregon. This allows local employers and professionals to learn from HR leaders and job search experts and make new friends and connections.
We recently teamed up with the School of Journalism and Communication at the University of Oregon to host a panel discussion about the skills communicators need to thrive in an uncertain job market. Here’s a recording of our conversation.
Regina Lawrence:
Hello, hello, good evening. Hi everybody. Welcome. So nice to have you all here. Hello, I’m Regina Lawrence. I’m the interim dean of the School of Journalism and Communication at the University of Oregon. And welcome to the new home of the University of Oregon here in Portland.
I’d love to see a show of hands. For how many of you is this your first visit to this campus? My goodness, look at that. That’s terrific. We’re so excited to welcome you here. And this, of course, is the home of the SOJC in Portland.
And I’ll just tell you a little bit about the SOJC right quick before we get started. The SOJC in Portland is home to a couple of research and industry outreach centers, including the Agora Journalism Center, which is all about improving local civic health through supporting robust local journalism.
We’re home to the Oregon Reality Lab, which is a really innovative, immersive media research, teaching, and creative space, just right across campus. Very cool, come see it sometime. We also have a gorgeous multimedia production facility here, which serves students across our programs. We have three master’s programs here in Portland. We have a multimedia storytelling, which focuses especially on video and audio nonfiction storytelling skills for journalists and those in other fields.
And we have a strategic communication program, master’s program, which we were just talking about a moment ago, boasts so many alums around the greater Portland region, et cetera. And that program has been beautifully, successfully led for so many years by my lovely colleague, Donna Davis.
And she’s standing over there at the table, ready to tell you more. And Donna is also the instigator of a one-of-a-kind master’s program in immersive media communication, which is a fully online program all about using technologies like extended reality, augmented reality, artificial intelligence, et cetera, to learn how to communicate effectively, strategically, and ethically. So, more information over there on the table if you’re interested.
We are so excited to have you all here and to be doing this event and welcoming Mac’s List here tonight. I’m sure you all know that Mac’s List is the premier organization for professional networking. We’re so delighted to have you all here. And Mac has been such a wonderful friend and mentor to us in so many ways.
You all know Mac, he probably goes without introduction, but just to remind you all, founder of Mac’s List, founder and publisher, and also, you know, has just little things like two books to his name, you know, “Find Your Dream Job Anywhere,” ‘Find Your Dream Job in Portland,” top Apple-rated podcast, “Find Your Dream Job.” I think there’s a theme here.
So, Mac, we’re so delighted to have you here. Thank you so much. And everybody, you’re in for a wonderful treat, a really great conversation. So thank you for being here.
Mac Prichard:
Thank you, Regina. Of course, there’s one blemish on my record. I am not a University of Oregon graduate, but I somehow struggled through and think about what I could have done if I had been a duck.
So it’s a pleasure, Regina, to team up with you. And I also want to give a shout-out to your colleague, Tai Le. Working with you to put this together has been a pleasure. And we’re so grateful to have the University of Oregon School of Journalism and Communication as our presenting sponsor. Let’s hear it for Regina, Tai, and Oregon.
We have sponsors too, including our silver sponsor, Edward Jones, and our community partners. If you haven’t been over to talk to these community groups and Edward Jones, please do so. Particularly if you want to network with AMA PDX, Communications Network of Portland, PRSA Oregon, and NextNW. These are all great groups that have wonderful events. If you want to meet people who are leaders in your industry, these are great places to do it. Let’s hear it for our sponsors.
And finally, last round of applause for the Mac’s List team. Again and again, people say, thanks for putting this together. And I’m so grateful that people thank us. And I mean that sincerely. But it’s my teammates, Joanie Wang, Lisa Kislingbury Anderson, and Susan Thornton-Hough in particular, who put all this together. And please join me in thanking them for their good work.
Let’s get going. Again, I’m Mac Prichard. I’m the founder and CEO of Mac’s List. For those who might not know it, we’re a regional job board, and we serve employers and job seekers in Oregon and Washington.
Our mission is to help you find work that matters and to help employers make the hiring process more human. And we do this through our job board and our weekly newsletter. But we not only want you to know about vacancies, but we also want you to have good job search skills, because when you invest in your skills, your search gets easier, and it goes faster.
So if you go to our website, you’ll find hundreds of articles about how to look for work. Regina mentioned the books, the podcast, and that we do events. So go to macslist.org, and you can learn more.
Let’s talk about our program for tonight. We’re going to hear from our panelists for 30 minutes. Then we’re going to take questions from you in the audience for 20 minutes.
We’ll close at 7:30, but don’t leave. We’ve got 30 more minutes of networking. So remember, each of you is an expert. You and you all have so much to offer your neighbors and other people in the audience tonight.
So I encourage you to take time to talk to others and meet as many people as you can. And above all, find ways to stay connected with people after the evening. Connect on LinkedIn or find other ways to remain in touch.
Now, let’s turn to our panelists. Let’s start with on my left, Felicia Rivers. She is the founder of Your Talent Ally. It’s a recruitment and HR consulting firm, and she has a partnership with Affirma Consultancy. Previously, Felicia was a top HR leader at Tillamook Creamery Association, Comcast, and Legacy Health.
To her left is Nicole Leverich, who works for this other job board I’ve heard about. It’s called LinkedIn.
Nicole Leverich:
You should connect on LinkedIn.
Mac Prichard:
Yeah, I think they’re an up and cover. Keep an eye on them. I don’t know. I’m so grateful, sincerely, that you’re here, Nicole. You are the senior vice president and the chief communications officer at LinkedIn. You are also a University of Oregon graduate. So think what I might have done and accomplished if I’d been a duck. But previously, you were the director of marketing and communications at Mixpanel. And you’ve held jobs at Google, AdMob, and Yahoo.
And to Nicole’s left is Mark Kajitani, who’s the vice president of operations at Meyer Memorial Trust. Now, previously, Mark was the director of people and culture at Oregon Public Broadcasting. And he was also the human resources director at the Immigrant and Refugee Community Organization. Please join me in welcoming our panelists.
I left my notes. The power of the paperclip. It keeps it all together. Well, let’s do a quick read of the room. And I’d like to ask, I’ve got three questions for everybody here.
Raise your hand if you work in journalism, communications, public relations, marketing, or advertising. Who works in those fields? OK, good.
Second, raise your hand if you’re looking for work. How many people are doing a job search? Well, pretty good representation of the room.
And finally, is anyone in the room considering a career change, changing careers? OK, maybe about 10%.
Let’s start with you, the panelists. I’ve got an opening question, a lightning round. In one word, how would you describe today’s job market? Felicia? One word.
Felicia Rivers:
Difficult?
Nicole Leverich:
Wow.
Mark Kajitani:
Complicated.
Mac Prichard:
Good. Okay. Well, let’s talk about one of our themes for tonight, the communication skills that matter to employers. And I’ve had several people say, you know, I don’t work in communications. Is this going to be valuable to me tonight? And as communicators, your skills are going to help you get hired. Whatever your profession, if you’re good at communications, that’s going to give you an advantage, too.
So Mark, you’ve done so much hiring over the years. What communication skills matter most to employers, particularly in this market?
Mark Kajitani:
I think right now, storytelling, of course, is central to every job applicant, every attempt to try and communicate who you are, and to be able to do storytelling in a way that is not extractive of other people, that uplifts your own or the communities that you’re trying to serve, is very, very important.
I think at the same time, skills around media literacy are super important, and especially today, trying to protect today’s democracy, and like being able to understand things and know where it’s coming from, what went behind it, like those things could not be understated
Mac Prichard:
And how does storytelling make a difference when you’re an HR manager, and you’re talking to a candidate? What kind of stories are going to make somebody stand out?
Mark Kajitani:
A story is the only thing I’m going to remember. I’ll be honest. I’ll put out postings, and my job is not necessarily to pick the perfect candidate, right? My job is to find out of the, my last posting had 800 applicants. I needed to find 12 that I could put in front of others. I think that storytelling is the only thing that I had in the, if I was really having lots of time, five minutes with an app.
What is the story here? Why can I see the art? And I see the challenge that they did. I see what they’re bringing to the table. What are the strengths that they’re shining through and trying to show me this? I know myself well.
Mac Prichard:
Felicia, what about you? What communications skills stand out when you’re talking to people in interviews?
Felicia Rivers:
What I’ll say is what Mark said is right on, and I would take it a step further. So when you’re in the interview, have done your research on the organization that you’re going to meet with. Think about how I can share what I know in the answers to the question.
So, as they’re asking you questions, think about how I’m going to weave in my experience to show them that I can do what I need to do, which is an extension of the storytelling, but this is once you get in front of them.
I think sometimes we get in front of them and we forget. That’s the piece where now, because we don’t know you. And so this is how we get to know who you are and what you can do.
Mac Prichard:
So Mark mentioned some of the elements of a story that he finds effective. What would you add to the list? He talked about arc and getting things done. What would you put on that list?
Felicia Rivers:
I would, you know, I always think about when you go into an interview, you’re wanting to show that organization what you can bring to the table versus you trying to understand what they can do for you. Yes, obviously, you need a job, you want a job, but you need to be trying to explain to them, here’s what I can bring to the table.
Mac Prichard:
In your experience, how many, if you talk to 10 candidates, how many people are talking about what they can do for the employer versus what they’re interested in about the job?
Felicia Rivers:
Two, maybe three.
Mac Prichard:
So if you want to stand out, that’s one way you could do it.
Felicia Rivers:
And they do stand out. always know I remember them.
Mac Prichard:
Nicole, one of the trends you’re seeing at LinkedIn is that people are moving away from credentials and toward skill-based hiring. Tell us more about that. What is happening exactly, why it matters, and how candidates can take advantage of that trend?
Nicole Leverich:
Is this working? No. Is this working? Yes, okay. I can also yell a little bit. So this is a reflection of what’s happening in the world right now. I graduated from U of O in 1999, the Stone Age. I had my first email account. It was very exciting.
The skills I learned –– how to write a press release –– were skills I used for 15 plus years. Now, in the environment that we’re operating in, the skills that you need change every six months, every year. Yes, I need to know how to write a press release, but actually, how you write a press release has fundamentally changed.
So you get LLM visibility. I also need to know how to write a social media post. I need to know how to edit a video. So this is a reflection of how fast the world, the job market, and companies are evolving. And so moving, whatever skills I had, they’re great. I’m not saying hide those.
But show that you are curious and you are constantly adding new skills to your toolbox. And that’s gonna be what companies are most interested in. Because the reality is they hire you for something now, I’m gonna need something different six months from now. So I need somebody who shows they’re willing to grow and change with a role.
Mac Prichard:
What’s your best advice about how far back to go in describing the skills you’ve learned? I mean, I’m guessing that putting down MultiMate is not going to be relevant, and no one under 50 knows what I’m talking about.
Nicole Leverich:
When I graduated, I was really proud to put PowerPoint and Excel as skills. I don’t think you need to go very far back, especially with more years of experience. If I say I was an assistant account executive at a PR agency, okay, I kind of know the base set of skills you need for that. Focus more on the skills that are unusual, the skills that are going to make you stand out, the skills that show your adaptability.
So those things like, yeah, so, know, a year ago, I would have said how to do prompt engineering, right? That was a skill you should highlight. Now, most people know how to do prompt engineering. So what’s the next version of that skill, and showing that you’ve got that arc of skill adoption over time, you’re not a one-and-done.
Mac Prichard:
Okay, emphasize skills, credentials, like a college degree, matter; the days when that alone made a difference have long passed, haven’t they?
Nicole Leverich:
Long, long past. I think it’s for the better, right? Like, I’m very proud of my college degree, but that shouldn’t be a barrier for awesome people to get a foot in the door.
And so there is a leveling of the job market with that focus on skills, but you got to constantly be putting yourself out and proving that you’re somebody that the company wants to have around the table long-term.
Mac Prichard:
Well, Mark, you talked about the communication skills that matter to employers right now. Why do employers care about communication skills at all? Not just for communicators, but for people who are applying for other jobs too.
Mark Kajitani:
I mean, this is the human element of work, right? Like you go to a workplace and you have to get along with so many people, and you have to communicate your vision on a project both upward and outward and down to get buy-in, to move people in a way that they want to be moved. And I think that that’s universal.
And there are lots of tools out there to maybe help your message get across. But I also think that like, being able to harken back, no matter how far the timeline is, through a story to say like, you know, I worked at this one place and we had, I took on like, figuring out how to organize all the photos, right? That go for a website.
And like, that is still universal. And that is a problem. Every organization is still wrestling with, right? Like, and like, surviving that process is something that you can champion because that is something that you will probably end up having to do some other place, right? And so just being able to, if you want to do those things, right?
Like, only highlight the things you want to do. Don’t talk about it if you don’t want to do it at the next job, right? That’s essential. So I would say, you know, again, like whatever really is applicable, even how far back it is, like it can be relevant in today’s day and age.
And it doesn’t have to be, like, a marketing associate or a communications director; people are doing that work all across. They are telling the stories across the state, across the communities, and they’re trying to do it in a way that engages communities, uplifts people again, and gives it in the most appropriate manner.
Mac Prichard:
Yeah. Felicia, when you interview people, whether someone is a trained professional communicator or just has good communication skills, what are they doing differently in an interview?
Felicia Rivers:
The folks that are really good at interviewing, and then there’s also the side of me that has to be careful about that too, but the folks that are really good are able to, when asked a question, tell that story.
So, you know, typically you all may have heard behavioral interviewing, you know, tell me about a time when X happened, and that person is able to tell you what the situation was, how they handled it.
And that is how you’re able to kind of help make that determination of do they actually know what they’re talking about? And then you can ask those follow-up questions as the interviewer.
Mac Prichard:
If you were coaching somebody who was preparing to tell that story, what advice would you give them to do it in order to do it well?
Felicia Rivers:
All right, everybody, get your pens out. This is a hack. When you are interviewing, the subject is you, and you are the subject matter expert. There are no trick questions. You know all the answers.
The beautiful thing is, if there’s something you haven’t done or don’t know how to do, you can just say that. I don’t have experience with that. You can always throw in, I’m willing to learn. But understand that you shouldn’t be nervous because it’s about you.
It’s about your experience. It’s about your life. It’s about what you’ve done. And you should be able to share that in a way. And I say, don’t mean that in a flip way. I mean, I want you to feel comfortable that you can share your experiences and not be nervous.
Mac Prichard:
I’m so glad you said that you should say, don’t know. Many people might think that an HR manager or recruiter might not want to hear that. What would you say to them?
Felicia Rivers:
No, we do want to hear that. Do you like that? No, we do want to hear that. But no, we want to understand what it is that you do know how to do. A lot of organizations are willing to train on certain things.
I am really quick to ask someone a question, and I’ll say, ” It’s OK if you don’t know how to do that.” When people say, I don’t really have experience, I’m like, ” Don’t worry that you don’t have that experience. I’m just trying to kind of understand what you have done.”
Nicole Leverich:
Can I add on that? I love it when somebody says they don’t know because it means if they’re on my team, they’re gonna admit when they don’t know something and then come to me and ask a question, which means it’s gonna be done right versus the, oh god, panic in the corner kind of situation.
And then the next level interview is, I don’t know how to do that, but then going into something that you do know how to deal with or do, or how you brought that skill in. So I actually love it. More people should say they don’t know.
Mark Kajitani:
I’m going to triple-click on that, right? And say like, okay, as a job seeker, this is also your chance to see how they respond to you not knowing. Are they a growth mindset organization that is going to say, like, we accept people wherever they’re at, they have a growing edge, and we’re going to support that and move on?
Or are they going to be an organization that just shuts you down and says, well, first thing you don’t know. And like, in some ways, it’s a test for them too. And so I think if you can embrace it like that, again, it feels the power dynamics and interviewing suck, right?
But if you can see it as if you’re trying to make your next best pick to find that dream job, like their answers and how they respond to your questions are just as important.
Felicia Rivers:
I couldn’t agree more, sorry. When I’m talking to folks about interviewing, I tell them the interview is just as much for you as it is for them. Because you are deciding where you want to spend the majority of your waking hours. And it does matter.
Nicole Leverich:
Yeah, I mean, it’s like dating, but more. Yeah. And if it’s not a match, if the chemistry isn’t there, there is only one job interview in my entire career that this happened. But I went in, I’d done all the phone screens. It was an in-person. They had me meet with three different people. Everything on paper looks great. Everything everybody told me, the words they said sounded great.
I had this feeling in the pit of my stomach, and it wouldn’t go away because it did not feel right. And I got offered the job, and I said no. And it was terrifying because I didn’t have another job at the time. In hindsight, I learned more about that company, and it was absolutely the right choice. But that’s where you got to listen to yourself, too.
Mac Prichard:
Yeah, I do want to go back to a point you made a moment ago, Nicole, about saying no, but and for those of us in the room who have worked in media relations, that’s called bridging.
You’re asked a question you don’t want to answer. In this case, it’s not that you don’t want to answer, you’re just acknowledging that you this is an area where you don’t have experience or knowledge. And that’s a good thing.
Do that bridge when you move to the subject you want to talk about. How do you figure out what to talk about next?
Nicole Leverich:
I’m gonna go back to grade school for many of us when you’re learning how to read, everybody’s taught, if you don’t know a word, you look for context clues. What are the words around that word that you don’t know?
So what I would say is you gotta look for the context clues in the question and then make your no, but bridge to something in a similar vein, either similar subject matter, similar, yeah, that’s a new technology, but you know, this was a new technology a year ago, and I really figured out how to do that. So you’ve got to take those context clues and take that into account with what you bridge to.
Mac Prichard:
Well, let’s move on to the job market. And we got good one-word definitions from each of you about the current market. And let’s talk about how you can stay relevant and resilient in your job search.
Nicole, you’re in the thick of it every day at LinkedIn. And I know you shared with me that it was a couple of years ago, it was a job seeker’s market back in the halcyon days of ‘21 and ‘22.
And candidates were in the driver’s seat, weren’t they?
Nicole Leverich:
They absolutely were. I mean, this is like the housing market, too, right? I love using analogies because everything maps to something else. It is an employer’s market right now, but I chose the word wow deliberately because it is hard, it is complex, but there are also jobs that never existed before.
And how cool is that, right? That you can be the first person to figure out how to do a job. So you have to do that extra effort to stand out.
You have to do all that extra work in this moment because we had a, we posted an intern role on my team, and I think it was a thousand employees, a thousand applications in one week before we closed it. That’s a lot to go through, and you’ve got to figure it out.
Mac Prichard:
A depressing figure that I hear a lot from applicants who get frustrated because, whatever site they use, they see the applicants. So when you reflect back on that internship application or just applications in general, the people who do stand out in a field of 500, 750, 1,000 applications, what do they do to make that happen?
Nicole Leverich:
I mean, part of it is what you all are here today doing. The people who applied that had a referral, right? That knew somebody else on my team or within LinkedIn, or even had a second-degree connection. Like, I know you, and you’re applying for a job there, and so you can be my referral. That’s the best way to stand out in the beginning.
Mac Prichard:
And some people have the good fortune to have known someone, referrals, what do they, how do they do that? If they already have a buddy or a
Nicole Leverich:
So there’s a site called LinkedIn. We also have an awesome app. So it is hard. I started in communications without a single connection to my name. And I will say every single job I’ve had from the first job, which I felt very lucky that I got, has been from a connection somewhere in my network.
So, hi, happy to meet you all. But you can also spend time on LinkedIn at these events and just see where people are. You can follow someone and see that, know, hey, I posted about this thing. You’re also into that thing, and you can send me a message or a connection request with that. Even if you strike out eight out of 10 times, you’ve got two.
And that gets you there. And I am always deeply appreciative of people who show the initiative to try to make that human connection. Because if you’re in communications, that’s the name of the game. It’s making human connections. So if you’re doing that extra to get there, I know you’re going to do that extra when you’re on my team.
Mac Prichard:
Mark, how do you see people stand out in this employer’s job market when they apply for a position?
Mark Kajitani:
I think, yeah, connection is key, right? That’ll get you into the top 16, maybe, right? And I think that the challenge is that sometimes people approach networking only when they’re in active search, right? Like, you gotta be networking all the time.
And that doesn’t necessarily mean like, it just means like having coffee with someone. That means right when you’ve gotten your next job, you’re still networking. You’re still building those connections with people.
And because it is the next, next job that you get through those connections, it’s the next, next, next job. And so it is still a really small state, right? It is a small state, and most sectors are really small. And so, people move around them all of the time. And I think at the same time, like it’s a weird world right now, where like a lot of employers, like we did a lot of Zoom hiring, right?
Like we interviewed people through Zoom, did all this pandemic hiring. And a lot of people didn’t live up to the things that they talked about once they started to be in person. And so there’s been this like rebound, reconnecting back to the human authentic experience.
And so when you’re meeting with people, you have to be that human, authentic experience that can’t be just reading off a script into a Zoom meeting room. So I think those are really important things. Again, like all the tips that Mac’s List puts out there, they’re true. The thank you notes, all of the things like that.
Nicole Leverich:
Thank you notes. Do thank you notes. Shocking how many people don’t do thank you notes.
Felicia Rivers:
And when there’s a choice between two people, I have done it more times in the 25 years I’ve been a recruiter. We hire the one who sends the thank you note and the one who sends the handwritten one. Holy cow.
Nicole Leverich:
Email is better than nothing, but that actually…
Felicia Rivers:
I’m not saying you need to handwrite, but I have gotten I actually still have them. I have gotten a handwritten thank-you note.
Mac Prichard:
Why is that? I agree with you. I’ve had my share of hiring.
Nicole Leverich:
It shows the care. It is the largest signal of interest. And if they’re doing that in this, what are they going to do on my team? Right? Like, there is no better way to demonstrate that this is a proactive person who is thoughtful, who goes that extra mile than something like a thank you note, which feels so old school.
Felicia Rivers:
And I want to triple down on what you two have said about the networking. Your networking has to be genuine, authentic networking. I cannot have Gabriella talking to me just because she wants a job.
I would like for Gabriella to truly want to get to know me and understand who I am. And we, you know, I can help her, she can help me, because just because I’m over here does not mean you can’t help me. And so we work together.
I have someone that I’ve known for years who was looking for work, and they were networking with me and doing all these things, and then they got a job, and I’m like, hey, lunch, no crickets. Those things, I won’t forget them.
Nicole Leverich:
Yeah, I think of networking, I’ve been with my company for 12 years, right, which could be a very easy, like set it and forget it, from a networking perspective. I view it as pennies in the bank every day, right?
If I do somebody a favor and meet somebody new, I make a connection, I make an introduction. And this is like every level, every role, from an executive down to the receptionist at the front door.
If I can help somebody else, I believe that’s going to come back to me. But also, you never know when that connection is going to pay off. So it’s like, you hear a really good song on the radio, you like to add it to your playlist, you meet somebody great, connect with them, and you just never know.
Felicia Rivers:
Exactly. Because you never know who is going to go from receptionist to owning their own business. I mean, we put people in places that we shouldn’t put them in.
Nicole Leverich:
Yeah, one of my biggest rules is if you’re rude to someone at the front desk, no, no way.
Mac Prichard:
Okay. I know I do want to touch on AI because Mark, you’ve talked a lot about the importance in a career and in a job search and in general about being human. How does that fit into the AI revolution we’re experiencing now?
Mark Kajitani:
AI. mean, nobody has everyone’s like, there’s an AI bubble, it’s destroying jobs, it’s disrupting industries, but like, I still think it’s still a connection, right? It’s a it’s right now, like, kind of in that space, like, is it spellcheck? Or is it something different? Right? And so, like, so I think that, in essence, the human connection is what communication is about.
And I think that for many organizations like nonprofits, it’s about authentic storytelling. It’s about, and we’re looking to make sure that job seekers know themselves authentically and can sort of stick to those talking points, can uplift their story in the ways that we do that too. And like that, it can’t be done through AI. It might be able to be refined a little bit, but like I think that the…
For anyone who’s still in active search, don’t let AI be a barrier to you building the network that you need, finding the connections, because the reality is, you’ve got to find something this week. You’ve got to structure your week in that search.
And a certain amount of it has to be app applying, and a certain amount of it has to be networking, and a certain amount of it has to be just understanding yourself, too. So don’t let it be a barrier to your own success, because it’s too big of an issue.
Mac Prichard:
Let’s turn to professional groups. Mark, I know you’re a big fan as well of professional groups and the difference they can make in a career. What difference have you seen involvement in professional associations make in the applicants that you have met with in the past?
Mark Kajitani:
I think it makes a huge difference. If I know that they’ve been in some sort of cohort, whether it’s human resources or communications or other things, I know that they understand community. Whether that is a community around a subject matter, that really helps me understand that they’re keeping up with the trends that are going on, the changes in that, that they have a community that’s beyond just themselves.
We all know people call on others to figure out what to do in this situation. And I want people who are connected. I want people who have communities so that if they don’t know, they can go out to their community to know who they can brainstorm with. That is the expectation for everyone right now. You have to have your own brand, and you have to have your own community. And there are many different forms of doing that.
There are a lot of electronic forums, there are a lot of in-person forums, but you have to have your community like set, and you have to keep working on it. It’s part of the ecosystem. You got to, you got to water it all the time.
Mac Prichard:
Yeah, we’ve got to move on. I do have a closing question, and then we’re going to turn to questions from the audience. For each panelist, what is your number one job hunting tip in this job market? In one or two sentences, who would like to go first?
Felicia Rivers:
Great. I have so many, but no, seriously, I’m old school, and I’m a true proponent of doing your research and understanding who is this company that you’re trying to work for? What is it that you can bring to the table? How do the skills that you have align with what they’re doing?
And by the way, do they align with what you want? Because I will, I cannot stress it enough how important it is for you to go work someplace that is meaningful to you. There’s no right or wrong, it’s what’s meaningful to you.
Nicole Leverich:
I’m gonna go with the approach of having a dialogue, not doing a monologue. I think when people get in, like just send out all the applications, they’re putting themselves in a monologue. I’m just talking at all of these potential employers. When somebody wants to have a dialogue in the job search, they do their homework. They look for shared connections.
They get curious about the company and whether the company is the right fit for me as much as if I’m the right fit for the company. There are far too few people I talk to who want to have a dialogue.
Mark Kajitani:
Agreed with both of those things. I would say for me, it’s mindset, right? It’s like, you get to choose what thoughts you want to entertain. Like, the system of job searching is a bummer, right?
It’s a, it’s a bummer. So, so you have to understand, like you are in a system that is a bummer. So it’s not your fault, right? It’s like cut yourself some slack, like uplift yourself because it’s the positivity. It’s the knowing yourself, it’s the knowing your strengths that will get you there. And everything else is a, is a barrier that you have to figure out how to get over.
And so like, it’s the mindset that like you have to just figure out what thoughts to entertain and which ones you’re going to say, like, okay, I’m going to give myself like 10 seconds on Friday to think about it that way. But like the rest of it, just keep going, and you’ll find that dream job, and then you’ll find the next dream job, you know, so.
Mac Prichard:
Okay. Well, thank you. Let’s turn to the audience and your questions. We’ve got 20 minutes to hear from you all. And we’ve got our hand up first-hand up already. And I see a second one as well. So I colleague, Joanie will take the microphone when you do ask your question, if you could stand up and share your name.
Bridget Jackson:
Hey, over in the corner. Hi everybody, I’m Bridget Jackson. Great stuff tonight, panel. Thank you so much for sharing. What advice do you have for some of us more senior or seasoned job seekers, especially if we are choosing to enter a company at a level that might belie our experience?
You might be in front of an HR generalist for your phone screen, who looks at how long or meaningful that resume is, and says why are you applying for a job at this level? How do you answer that? How do you face the ageism traps?
Felicia Rivers:
I would recommend number one, I would shorten the years of experience that you, you know, the enough, I wouldn’t go back more than maybe 10 to 12 years. The other thing that I would do is this is where you use your cover letter, and you say, I am looking for this opportunity, and this is why. So you answer that question before they even ask it.
Mark Kajitani:
I would say that, like a lot of companies are having folks who are retiring, right? There’s a big brain group of like smart, thoughtful people who hold institutional knowledge who’ve just noped out, right? And so you in your seasoned professionalness is not that person who’s coming in who needs to be taught everything.
And that is so helpful because I don’t have time to teach anything, right? And so just like… understanding again, you bring your own strengths to whatever that role might be, and like being able to uplift that because like, I need seasoned professionals.
I don’t need entry-level folks. So, like, again, however that is, just know that organizations across the board are still having a massive exodus of folks.
Mac Prichard:
And a question over here, Joanie.
Ellen Griley:
Hi, I’m Ellen. I’m a trauma-informed employee communications consultant. And I was meeting with a mentee earlier this week who asked a really interesting question about using notes in job interviews.
So, when it was Zoom interviews that actually worked for my advantage. I have anxiety. I was able to kind of reference some things during my interview, and it really made a huge difference for me in my career. But what is that like for the interviewer? How today, how is that viewed? Any tips or advice you guys have on that?
Mark Kajitani:
I think I love notes because it shows you’re prepared, but don’t over-prepare like coming to the interview with like 47 pages of questions, right? Like I have folks who like, when we say, ” Do you have any questions?” We expect you to have a question, right? Or two, but not too many, right?
So, like, it’s this unspoken, delicate balance of getting that just right. So, but yeah, be prepared. Like again, that’s a strength. And if you need to refer to your notes, like awesome, like people do that in their jobs all the time.
Nicole Leverich:
My specific hack on this is, you think about a notebook, the left side of the page that you have open is your notes. You’re like quick things you want to remember. And then the right side is where you’re taking notes.
Because nobody ever thinks about the left side. As far as they know, that’s just notes from something else. Then you have it there, like your comfort blanket. Nobody needs to know.
Felicia Rivers:
And the only other thing that I would say is I’m going back to something that Mark said, and to answer another question. If an organization is not OK with you saying, “Hey, I’ve got a couple of notes here, and then I’ve got my questions I’ve written down. And I also want to take some notes during this interview. Is that OK?” If they have a problem with that, I kind of worry about them.
Katrina Feliciano-Stoddard:
Hi, I’m Katrina, and I’m going to be kind of a contrarian to the trope about credentials being critical, with some empirical evidence and from my own experience. But the way that, you know, everyone’s kind of assuming on the panel that most job seekers are at the interview stage with 500 applicants on average, you have to get through the ATS system, which is very similar to the college admissions process, where college admissions first looks, they do an algorithm, and they filter the A’s.
They look at the quality of the school that they had attended, the high school, and maybe even, you know, demographics. With that said, the question is: how do you filter and extract storytelling from an ATS system when the people that you’re competing with, with bank companies and Microsoft, get preference?
Nicole Leverich:
So I’ll start by saying that keywords on your resume are critical, and so if one of the things I’m looking for in an applicant is storytelling, make sure the keyword storytelling is on your resume and your cover letter, but you’re right. There are base things that we’re looking for in any job, but you have to get through that door.
When I started, you had to have a degree to get an interview at Google. And it had to be a degree from a set of schools that I didn’t graduate from, and you had to have a GPA above. Those types of requirements, I do believe, have gone by the wayside. There are probably still exceptions out there, but not as many as it used to be. And you can demonstrate that you have the skills necessary from a broader set of things, like even including volunteer work if it demonstrates you’ve got event planning skills. But you probably have the best advice.
Felicia Rivers:
Well, I know that what I’m about to say, it will be hard for people to believe, but in my last three jobs, I led recruiting, and I insisted that my recruiters read every resume. So we did not use the ATS to rule people out. So the first thing I’ll say is there are still companies that do that. Tillamook, Comcast, and Legacy, we read all of the resumes.
So there are a lot of places that don’t do that. So that’s the first thing I’ll say. But the second thing I’ll say is that it goes back to what I continue to say: do your research.
So understand the job that you’re applying for, understand what they’re looking for and make sure that your resume and your cover letter says that because those and it’s not an it’s not a guarantee, but those are the things that are going to help you differentiate yourself from the other folks that are out there applying.
Mark Kajitani:
Yeah. And I see when I’m meeting with a lot of HR folks, there is a rebellion against using AI, right? Nobody trusts it. Nobody likes it. Nobody wants to use it.
So there’s a huge rebellion of people in the hiring space that are saying, “We’re not filtering. We’re not, we’re not using any of these tools because, like everything that we have learned from equity and all the work that we’re trying to do about finding the right fit. It’s like, nothing is better than reading yourself.”
Mac Prichard:
So I believe you all, but there’s a perception out there. Why do you think that perception is so persistent that you it difficult, if not impossible, to get through the ATS?
Mark Kajitani:
Because huge employers use it, right? But like, let’s look at Portland and Oregon, like, how many of those huge employers actually are here in our community? The reality is that most employers are not 10,000 people in size; they are 100 to 200 people. And like those organizations don’t, but you only see what the big promotions are.
Nicole Leverich:
Yeah, and the reality of the hiring process is if you’re applying, you’re putting your resume into a black box, and you don’t often know what’s happening inside that black box. So it is very easy for perceptions to persist because you don’t know. So I would believe that is part of it, too.
Felicia Rivers:
It’s scary when the organization doesn’t get back to you.
Corinne Gould:
Hello, thanks, Lisa. I’m Corinne Gould, and I’m asking this as a job seeker who has a lot of privilege, including parents who have been working in similar industries to mine for a long time.
But I’m also thinking a couple of steps ahead of when I’m on the hiring committees, when I’m in my next role, and I’m building a team. I really appreciated how you connected the like thank you note etiquette to a tangible reason that that person stands out, you know, as a communicator, that is a skill that is a value, it shows proactive, connective strategy and communication.
Can you draw some lines for me for where bias is something you’re thinking about in the hiring as opposed to here’s a tangible skill that someone’s bringing and here’s where we’re actually just filtering for like the most privileged person in the room, the person who had the most time on their hands to practice, the person who thinks on their feet and is neuro-typical.
How do you draw the line between is going to hit the ground running and is a great asset to the team, and somebody who just has more at their disposal?
I’m coming at it from two angles. I think sometimes I have an advantage as an applicant, and I’m trying not to feel guilty about that while leveraging that advantage.
And I’m also thinking about my future, where I’m going to be building a team, and I want to make sure I’m not accidentally falling into bias and calculating for the wrong thing when I’m looking for who stands out in the room.
Mark Kajitani:
I think every hiring manager wants to hire the best possible person. These are the program managers that I work with to make those selections. They always want to hire the best possible person. And absolutely, there is bias in there because the people who go to journalism school are filters.
The people who then go to work at organizations where they’re producing storytelling or those things that is filtered up, and then they get referrals by those people who already exist. That is an incredible amount of bias in the system.
And so how are those organizations disrupting that through specific targeted recruitment strategies, engaging other outside partners to help them broaden that to post in different locations to do that community engagement. They’re all doing that.
But again, everyone’s coming from this place. Like all things being where they’re at, I want the best possible person.
Nicole Leverich:
So one thing that we’ve started to do on my team, and it’s been a while now, it used to be you’d come in, and you’d meet with like three to five different people. You’re parked in a conference room, and you get the revolving door. Instead, now we do an interview panel where you come in, and we usually give a subject prompt like, ” Hey, come up with a plan for us on this specific thing.”
And you have instead, usually, it’s three people as our target, all listening to that at the same time. And we deliberately choose three people with different experience sets. They’re not always from the same team. You’ll bring in a partner, et cetera.
Making that one conversation we’ve found helps to make sure that there isn’t like one kind of side experience that biases, et cetera. But I don’t think there’s an easy universal answer on that. I do love the hiring panel, though, for anybody who gets to be in a position to make decisions like that.
Felicia Rivers:
And I’ll just add a couple of things. What we have done at places where I’ve worked is we have had a diverse interview panel. So we have insisted that folks are diverse in that panel. And you can think about all the ways that diversity is not just ethnicity, it’s all sorts of things.
So we have had that, we have, in certain roles, like leadership roles, we have required that there be a diverse candidate pool. So if you only have white males for a particular job, I’m going to need you to go back out and find me some more people because we need a diverse candidate pool.
Mac Prichard:
Okay, thank you, Corinne. Who has the next question? Lisa? Joanie? Joanie?
Brett Rolin:
Hi, I’m Brett Rolin. Thanks for being here. I have two parts to a question. One, I’m wondering, as I’ve been interviewing, the length of time has seemed kind of crazy. Three months. I’m wondering if you’re seeing those trends, and also this ghosting of getting through three, four interviews and just getting ghosted without explanation. Is it appropriate to go to the, I mean, I’m just curious, thoughts around that.
Nicole Leverich:
I would reach out and ask. And I say that in the spirit of you don’t get 100% of the things you don’t ask for. So as long as you are polite and constructive, and you’re like, I’m assuming you’ve moved on with another candidate, I would love to know what happened, why I wasn’t on your list. I think that is perfectly acceptable. And it’s actually a good sign. You want to hear that from somebody.
You hit the right person, and they’re going to probably give you some feedback. On the length of the hiring process, I generally think it goes fast when it’s like a focused priority. It goes slower when the hiring manager is stretched really thin, and they’re not able to prioritize going through.
You know, I was personally hiring for a role about a year ago, and halfway through the hiring process, my dad died, and I was a mess for a hot second, and I didn’t get back to any… It was all dependent on me. The recruiter couldn’t do anything without me talking to them.
I didn’t get back to candidates for three weeks in the middle of a process that included in-person interviews. And I lost one of the candidates. They got a job somewhere else, but that was a personal me thing. So you also don’t know what’s happening with the person you’re interviewing with.
And there’s that aspect of we’re all weirdo humans in our own special way, too. But it’s so hard. You do just want some form of clarity.
Felicia Rivers:
One, I’m sorry that that has happened to you. I really, really, really, really do not like it when a person has been interviewed, and they are not reached back out to to give a decision. So that’s the first thing. But then the second thing I would say to that is I completely agree. You should ask, but also, do you want to work there?
Maddie Matthews:
Thank you all for speaking with us. My question’s a little bit niche, but I’ll try to broaden it for everybody. My name is Maddie Matthews. So, as we’re all kind of applying for jobs, there can be a challenge when you have something in your resume that either you don’t feel will serve you in the best way to a hiring panel, or it might be some kind of anomaly.
For me specifically, as I’m looking for jobs, my current position is a great experience. I feel very proud of the work I’ve done, but it’s the company that I’m worried about. And so anybody Googling the name of that company might have some serious reservations about, did this person, does this person agree with the mission behind this organization?
And so I guess I’d like to know how to structure that in a resume without completely removing that experience. Or should I be more bluntly honest in my cover letter and say, “Hey, I don’t agree with these things, and I’d really like to move in another direction that more aligns with my values,” without disparaging your current employer.
Felicia Rivers:
I was gonna say to use your cover letter, but do it in a way that you’re saying that my values are not aligned with where I’m currently working, which is the reason why I’m looking for work. That way, you’re not disparaging the organization. You’re not saying they do X, and I don’t like it. You’re just saying, I don’t agree with, I’m not in alignment.
Nicole Leverich:
The thing I would add, think the employer is a uniquely hard one, and I love that option. Years ago, there used to be a phrase that we would bandy about in corporate land of bring your whole self to work. I never bought into that phrase because my whole self is a bit of a weirdo. I’m going to throw a lot of movie quotes at you and do some Homer Simpson jokes. You don’t want that. You want my professional self.
So I think of it like your profile on LinkedIn, your resume, whatever that may be, bring your best possible self. And that means you don’t put everything on it. You are self-editing to be the best, truthful, authentic version of you to your resume, to your profile, to your cover letter. You don’t have to have everything there, and it’s okay. I don’t think any employer would expect that either.
Mac Prichard:
Well, brings our panel to a close. Our next event is going to be on May 7th, and we’ve got a QR code. think, yes, it’s right there if you want to take out your phone, and we’ll leave that up. If you’d like to learn more, it’s going to be happening in downtown Portland, and we’re going to be focusing on mentorship and job search.
But before we begin our networking, let me just ask, is it okay for people in the audience to connect with each of you on LinkedIn?
Nicole Leverich:
Yes, I will say follow me unless we actually have a conversation, and then I will accept a connection request. I have a hard rule that I only connect with people I know in real life. I love follows. And you can still get all the same stuff out of a follow.
Mac Prichard:
Okay, all right. And each of you, I know, is going to be here for the next half hour. So if you’d like to talk to Mark and Nicole and Felicia one-on-one, please take advantage of the time to do that. So thank you all for coming tonight, and please thank our panel.
Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job.
You can support our show and help others find it by leaving a review and rating on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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This show is produced by Mac’s List.
Susan Thornton-Hough schedules our guests and writes our newsletter. Lisa Kislingbury Anderson manages our social media and creates our transcripts.
Our sound engineer and editor is Megan Hattie Stahl. Our music is by Freddy Trujillo.
This is Mac Prichard. See you next week.
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