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Bonus Episode 86: The Leadership Skills You Need to Succeed in Oregon’s Tough Job Market

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On Sept. 11, we hosted our third quarterly event of 2025 in partnership with Willamette University’s Atkinson School of Management. Almost 100 people gathered for networking and a panel discussion, “The Leadership Skills You Need to Succeed in Oregon’s Tough Job Market.” 

Together, the panelists shared their experiences from higher education, tech recruiting, and executive coaching, offering practical advice for job seekers navigating Oregon’s challenging job market. Attendees also had the opportunity to connect with representatives from eight tabling organizations, including educators, professional associations, and career coaches.

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Find Your Dream Job, Bonus Episode 86:

The Leadership Skills You Need to Succeed in Oregon’s Tough Job Market

Airdate: Nov 3, 2025

Mac’s List regularly sponsors public events in our hometown of Portland, Oregon. It allows job seekers, employers, and others to gather and make new friends and connections.

We recently teamed up with Willamette University’s Atkinson School of Management to host a panel conversation about the leadership skills you need to succeed in Oregon’s tough job market.

Here’s a recording of our conversation.

Leah Straley:

Can everyone hear me okay? Is this all right? Okay. Well, welcome. My job here is just to say hello, do a little welcome, and welcome you to our space.

I’m really excited to see everyone here tonight. We are delighted to have you in our space. Willamette University is thrilled to partner with Mac’s List for an evening filled with networking and skill-building advice and hopefully some good food.

I’ve had a little bit of Tamale Boy already, and I’ll probably go back again. So please help yourself to the delicious food. My name is Leah Straley. I am honored to work with our graduate programs here at Willamette University. Welcome to the Ecotrust space.

At Willamette, we call it the GPC, the Graduate and Professional Center. This building is pretty cool. And I’m gonna say a few words about this building because I think it is pretty cool. It was originally constructed in 1895 as a warehouse for the McCracken Company. They distributed building materials. It was built with brick, as you can see all around us, and very heavy timber.

And it reflected the city’s industrial character at the time. Very practical, very sturdy, and it was designed to work with the railroad tracks. There were lots of trains going in and around the city at that time. After decades of use, it kind of fell into disrepair.

And in the 1990s, the Ecotrust Corporation, a nonprofit organization devoted to fostering environmental stewardship and social equity, saw potential in the building. They bought it, they renovated it, and then in 1998, the warehouse was transformed into the EcoTrust building, making history as the first historic redevelopment in the Pacific Northwest to earn a LEED Gold certification for sustainability.

Today, it stands as a hub for innovation and community connection. And so I think it’s the perfect place for the perfect setting, kind of to continue networking and building community here tonight and working with each other to explore new ideas. Willamette is proud to build on the same spirit of innovation as Ecotrust through its graduate programs.

In our space, just down the hall, if any of you have made it that way, we offer evening classes for our MBA for Professionals program and our Master’s in Data Science. Tonight, there are actually three classes that are happening.

So there’s lots happening in the building tonight. But right down the hall, we have three of our classes taking place tonight. Data Ethics, Leadership, Effectiveness and Development, and Managerial Decision Making.

I think all of those are excellent examples of classes that help build skills for today’s job market. Also within walking distance of this building is the Pacific Northwest College of Art, which is that way a bit. Also a part of the Willamette University family. And also a really incredible building. If you guys haven’t seen Pacific Northwest College of Art, it’s a really incredible building.

We have graduate programs in arts, design, and critical studies at PNCA, also. On our Salem campus, you will find our law school and our MBA program for early professionals, and our new Master of Science in accounting and finance. I would like to, before I step away, just give a shout-out to all the Willamette folks who are here. We have a big group of them back there.

If anyone has any questions about Willamette University, yay, they’re waving. Any questions about Willamette University, about our graduate programs, even undergraduate programs, anyone who has some kids ready to go to undergraduate, we’re happy to answer any questions for you. And you can visit us at our table back there.

So this evening, you will hear from a panel of professionals speaking about the essential leadership skills needed to succeed in the job market. Please take advantage of their expertise. They will arrive shortly. Spend some time networking, and we at Willamette hope you enjoy the evening and enjoy the space. Thank you.

And Mac is going to take the stage now. All right. Thank you all.

Mac Prichard:

And I’ve got a question for each panelist, and I want a one-word answer. In one word, how would you describe the job market in Oregon right now? Tim, you want to go first?

Tim Butler:

I’ll just say wild, wild.

Mac Prichard:

Okay, you want to pass the mic over?

Ashley Nixon:

Mine’s a little bit of a synonym, but I would say tumultuous.

Carol Parker Walsh:

Yeah, Uncharted.

Mac Prichard:

Okay, all right, well, you’ve painted a picture. Let’s unpack that. Ashley, why don’t we start with you? Why is the job market this way? What’s going on? You work with employers and students, so you see both people coming out of school, and then in your consulting practice, you have many employers as clients.

Ashley Nixon:

One of the challenges that we’re having in this particular area is there’s been downsizing, right? Additionally, we’ve got some insecurity and instability in our economic system that is leading to employers, you know, it’s just speaking with someone earlier, employers posting jobs.

How many people applied for a job, haven’t heard back for months, and then, maybe two months down the road, three months down the road, someone reaches out? What they’re doing is they’re waiting to find out if they actually have the financial resources available to support the position that they need for the organization.

They don’t want to cut you loose as applicants because they need you. But they don’t have the stability that they need to commit. And so that’s being problematic on both sides. People are needed in organizations. Organizations don’t know if they have the consistent resources to have us in those organizations. And as more of us start applying, the better pool of candidates they have to select from.

And so it becomes more and more competitive for those of us who are trying to leap into a job. If we’re trying to do an industry change, it’s even more challenging because we know we have transferable skills.

But when someone’s looking at that resume and sees this person has the exact skills I need, our transferable skills are not nearly as obvious. And so all of this is kind of teaming together to make it much more challenging for us to find those positions that five, six years ago might have been much easier, even three years ago.

Mac Prichard:

Carol, what are your thoughts?

Carol Parker Walsh:

Yeah, the reason I said uncharted is because, you know, we have AI that is very prominent. So understanding, even if you’re not trying to be a software engineer or going into something where your job may look like it’s related to AI, you still need to understand how to master it, how to leverage it, not only in the process of finding something, but also when you get into something. Also,

To what Ashley said, employers are in a very precarious position right now, and they’re a little bit in a state of flux as well. So they’re looking for people who have clarity around who you are, what you can do for the organization. So it’s not a time for passivity in terms of looking for something but a time to really think of it as an entrepreneurial venture for yourself in terms of how are you marketing yourself? How are you positioning yourself?

How are you letting the organization know the contribution that you can make, the impact that you can make, the skills that only you could bring to the table that are going to make a difference, that those 50 other applicants, who cares about them? Because I’m the one that you really want to hire. And let me tell you why.

So being able to take more command of yourself in the process to help employers understand their own needs and how you can help them in ways that they may not have even thought about.

It’s an uncharted territory. It’s an opportunity for you to show up in ways that you probably haven’t thought about in traditional approaches to looking for jobs. So that’s what I would say about that.

Mac Prichard:

Quick follow-up for Carol, because I want to get to your take on the job market, too, Tim, but many people struggle with figuring out what they want to do next. What’s your advice for somebody who is, and I think this is natural, getting clarity about who you are and what you offer? What have you seen work for people who are in that place?

Carol Parker Walsh:

Yeah, for me, it’s about letting go of titles and letting go of specific positions that you want to go after. Just initially, instead of that, take inventory of what it is that you bring to the table. What are your, not just your noticeable skills or the things that you have maybe littered your resume with, but what are some of those natural talents and geniuses that you probably don’t even talk about or that you don’t even realize that you know how to use and leverage?

In ways that you haven’t had the opportunity to do that before. So, as they say in old Greek, I’m not a historian, so it’s probably wrong, old ancient tradition, like know thyself, is like the key thing. If you understand not just that I’ve done these skills that are related to this job, but I have this capacity and this genius of creating these deliverables and having this type of results in the work that I do in the world.

That’s a very different conversation. And it allows you to approach the conversation with much more clarity and surety than instead of would you give me a job? It’s more like I have something that you need. It’s a bartering and exchange, right?

You know, and so how doing that self-inventory of really not just your skills, but going a level deeper and understanding your genius or talents, how you leverage the way you do things, right? It’s not just what you do, but the way you do it may be different than how someone else does it, right?

Because you’re more introverted and so because you’re more introverted, you’re more process-oriented and you think deeper about things than someone who’s extroverted, who probably is, you know, a snappier decision maker, right?

So, understanding the nuances of how you do things that make what you do so important and unique and valuable is something that you wanna do some internal dive into so that you can articulate that in an interview or in a networking conversation or whoever you’re meeting so that you can explain why you’re different from everybody else.

Tim Butler:

Yeah, I said wild because just the sheer number, the volume of people who are currently unemployed, thinking about the industry that I’m in, which is tech, and I look at it this way, it’s cities: when you look at the sheer numbers in some cases, whether it’s a town of 50,000, a city of 100, 125,000.

So it’s the numbers that make it so wild, and the length of time people are out there looking and searching, and being faced with the barrier of not being able to break through the ATS —the applicant tracking system —because you’re number 501, your number 675. So that for me that that’s wild. It’s uncharted, you know, territory, unprecedented in a way if you think of it that way.

But it’s also the same way from my perspective as the employer, too, because what you have are recruiters who maybe are accustomed to having 15 to 25 positions that they’re working on, but maybe they’re more accustomed to having 50 to 75 applicants that they’re reviewing until they have to advertise to maybe get another 25 to come through.

Whereas now, a job is posted for four or five days, and it’s at 500, if not more. And they just simply don’t have the time to go through all of that. And as a result from the hiring manager’s side, it gets really wild because what it does is they see it as options and choices. And in some cases, it seems as though maybe they’re not even ready to hire. They don’t know exactly what they want. And so it takes longer with the process.

And as a result, that affects candidate experience as well, where people think they’re getting ghosted. Maybe they’re not necessarily being ghosted. It’s just that the recruiter is trying to figure out what the hiring manager wants to do. And the hiring manager is trying to figure out, well, maybe there’s somebody else in there that we can look at, or maybe I need to talk to some of my peers and see if there’s a referral. So I just think that’s why I say wild.

Mac Prichard:

Well, the market’s changed, it’s different. Many of us may be doing the same things that we did in the past when we were looking for a job because it worked. But what do we need to do differently now? Who’s got some thoughts about that? Carol?

Carol Parker Walsh:

Come to places like this, network. There’s a colleague who talks about, when she explains how she got her job at like Microsoft or Intel or other places. She’ll say because I was sitting next to somebody on the plane and we had a conversation, or I was at a networking event, or I was at Thanksgiving dinner, and my cousin was there and he knows someone. I cannot under or over,

value the importance of connections.

When I’ve worked with people who are transitioning in their career after maybe having 20 years in one area, they invariably are able to get something different. We don’t even look at the resume. It’s through connections and networking. And it’s how do you talk to people and expand to people, let everybody know what it is. Not the job. Don’t give people titles. I can’t emphasize that enough.

Because a title at one place means something different than somewhere else. And if you tell someone a title here, then you put in their mind, you know, Sam, who works in the next cubicle next to them, who does that thing, and that may not be what you do.

So being able to articulate what it is that you’re looking for, but telling everybody and networking, I cannot, you know, under, over, if it’s that, what’s the word? I can’t. Whatever it is, I’m telling you, it works. It’s the thing.

Mac Prichard:

So Carol, quick follow-up. So, when people hear networking, often they struggle with how to do it strategically and effectively. Just quickly, what’s your number one networking tip in order to generate that referral that’s going to lead to an interview?

Carol Parker Walsh:

So, relationships. So, don’t just go in with, ‘ Can you help me? ‘ Go in and talk to people because who they are, they may know, their network of people, and the amount of people that they know that they may not even be thinking that they know in the initial conversation with you may arise after a week or two that you’ve had the initial conversation. So, build relationships where you’re just getting to know people, where you can always talk to them, and don’t keep going to the same tree.

Right? Just don’t pick the same five people that you’re talking to. Talk to everyone and get a network of people that you can connect to.

Mac Prichard:

Ashley, what do you recommend people do differently in this different job market?

Ashley Nixon:

All right, so I’m going to sound a little bit like a broken record, but yes, relationships are what’s going to get you past computer systems. Referrals are wonderful at letting organizations know that you’re not just a qualified candidate, but that you’re the right candidate for the culture of the organization.

So, looking for ways to get referrals in organizations is a really, really key thing that you can do. One of the things that I often hear about networks is, I don’t have one. Yes, you do.

It might not be well tended to, but you know people, you have gone to schools in the past, you have met people, you come from towns, you know people. And most of these are search functions on LinkedIn. So you can reconnect easily.

Reaching out to those people, finding out that thing that you have in common with them, connecting with them, and then not letting it stop there. We want to tend to those relationships, even if it’s just, you know, following them and giving them congratulations when they post things on LinkedIn.

But then, asking, ‘Can I have time to talk to you about what it would be like to work at your organization? Can I have time to talk to you about what it might look like to work in this field?’ Even if you think you already know, who cares, right?

Just go out and ask them what their experiences are and learn something new, something additional. At the end of that, you can always have an ask, which is, Who else do you think that I ought to talk to as I contemplate this change in my career?

And see if they can help you build your network by just suggesting someone who you could then go and connect with. And then, of course, do the polite things. Thank them. Make sure that they know how much you appreciate their time.

People love doing this for other people. I always love asking, how many of you like helping others? How many of you like asking for help? Even I keep my head down there.

So I’ll give you a small reframe on this. When you think about asking someone for help, realize every single person in this room raised their hand saying, ‘I like to help others.’

When we ask for help, what we do is allow people to engage in the world, to be part of a society, and to do something that they really like doing. If we’re asking people to talk about their career, it has the reflected glow of like, you know, I’ve achieved something.

I have information that people want and is useful. That makes us feel really good. So try to break through that mental barrier. Realize that when you ask for help, people enjoy and appreciate it and are rewarded by helping you.

And in that way, start growing and building your network so that you have those folks who can help you identify those geniuses and allow you to be more successful in this search for something that adds something more to your life than a paycheck.

Mac Prichard:

So quick follow-up, Ashley: talked about how having an ask —asking people for help — makes the person who gets the request feel good. But why is it important for you as a job seeker to have an ask in every meeting? Why shouldn’t you just say, ‘Well, it’s been great to see you, and let’s stay in touch.’ Why is an ask important?

Ashley Nixon:

One, for this particular scenario, helps you grow your network, right? Asking who else you would recommend that I talk to in your organization or in your field allows you to start making connections with more people. And that’s really, really valuable. It’s also nice because it keeps that relationship ongoing into the future.

Rather than being this person you talked to once, they’re now someone who you might want to report back and say, ‘This went really well. Thank you so much. That was brilliant. Thank you for helping me with that.’

And again, this norm of reciprocity starts building these relationships where we ask for something, we thank people, they want to help us, and so on. It grows. And then, you know, suddenly we’re friends.

Carol Parker Walsh:

Yeah, just want to, I want to, you know, you are selling yourself, right? So when you go to a restaurant or any place, don’t they ask you, ‘Would you like to see the specials or do you want to supersize that at McDonald’s or like, they’re always upselling, right?’ And so the ask, I akin it to that is the, you selling yourself and it’s kind of like the upsell. So here’s one more thing that I’ve given you this key information, but then the ask is to level up so that you have a relationship to come back to.

You have a reason to reconnect to that person, to follow up, to thank them. It’s kind of like upselling yourself because that is what you’re doing: selling yourself.

Mac Prichard:

So, Tim, as a recruiter, the world has changed. There may be fewer positions. There are fewer positions to fill. There are more applicants. What do you see in the applicants who are successful, who get interviews and offers, do differently in this market?

Tim Butler:

I would say one of the biggest things that they do, I’m a sourcer and so a sourcer basically is a fisherman. I grab a pole and I go and I look for external applicants. If you optimize, I saw somebody back there who had LinkedIn as part of their services.

If you optimize your LinkedIn profile, that will do a world of good for you. Because what you’re doing is you’re finding ways to make it so that your profile will rise to the top.

As I told everybody before we, when we had our pre-meeting, recruiters like to press the easy button because of the workload. The easier you make it for them to find you or if, whether they’re doing a search in their CRM of resumes or if they’re out on LinkedIn and they’re doing a search, they just want to type in art director, software engineer.

They don’t want to do, and I don’t know how many people know what a Boolean search string is, but most of them are terrified or hate the effort that goes into crafting a nice Boolean search. I love it. I do get with it, but most recruiters don’t. So you really need to figure out how to make yourself more visible.

And back to what you said at the top, stepping away from the computer and doing something that’s different, getting out and meeting with people. And I don’t see her, but I saw Dawn Rasmussen in the background there. There she is.

She’s one of two people that I spoke to who helped launch me into recruiting because I was on Twitter. True story. So we both pointed me to the same person.

Mac Prichard:

So it started online, but did it move offline? Did you step away from the?

Tim Butler:

I was just active on Twitter, and I was trying to figure out Twitter and then also trying to figure out, how do I break into recruiting?

Going to different networking groups and I found what used to be called Twitter chats and Dawn and Steve Potestio is his name, were both part of this Twitter chat and they both reached out to me and said, “Hey, if you want to have coffee, be happy to chat with you about recruiting. And as a result, I am now in the recruiting field.”

Mac Prichard:

Okay, so you’ve heard it from the tech guy and the guy who runs the job board. Step away from the computer. Yes. All right. Well, let’s move on to leadership skills, our theme for the evening.

And I want to start with you, Carol, but I want to hear from everyone on the panel. What leadership skills matter most to employers, and how is that going to help you get your next job and help you in your career?

Carol Parker Walsh:

Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, at risk of sounding like a broken record is really that clarity of what it is that you can do for the organization. What it is that, what skills you bring, what talents you bring, but also understanding the impact and results that they can deliver for an organization, right?

So I was sharing before that there’s not, even in my career, and this is probably because I started my career as a lawyer, so I was a negotiator and pushy anyway, right?

But there’s not been probably a position that I have ever gone after where I haven’t negotiated the job description in the interview. Because where I’ve said, you know, I read the job description and I’m seeing these three functions within it.

I don’t think they belong in this function or me saying I don’t think the level that this position is being recruited for is at the right level for what you’re looking for. But I always back that up with, because here’s what I understand you’re looking for and what you want this role to do within the organization and the impact you want it to have within the organization.

And if you want to leverage my skills to the maximum level, these three things will take me away from what I could be doing at a tremendous level and the impact and the outcomes that I could bring within your organization.

And they have always changed because I come in with clarity, but also it lets them know that I’m someone that A, has studied the organization and understands the dynamics of it. Two, understands what their key issues and problems are and how what I can do can help with those key issues and challenges. And three, that I’m vested because I’ve said here’s what I’m excited about coming in and doing these three things and in the first 30 days.

Here’s what I want to start doing. That has shocked most interviewers When I’ve had those conversations, but that level of leadership translates in their mind to someone who’s going to come in this organization and make an impact and make a difference so it but it starts with having that clarity around what you bring, but also the research that you’ve done around the impact that you can have within the organization, right?

It’s not just what you do, it’s the outcome of what you do and understanding that and the relationship between the organization.

Mac Prichard:

Some people might hear that, know what you want, what you offer, and what you’ve done, not as leadership skills, but they are leadership skills, aren’t they?

Carol Parker Walsh:

Absolutely. So if you’re going to be given a project when you’re in an organization, you have to know if you have the capacity to be able to do that project. If you’re going to be leading a team meeting, you have to know that you have the ability to lead and motivate and inspire that team and be able to direct that team in the way that it needs to go.

So understanding the skills and talents you have and how they translate into the work that you’re doing makes a big difference is a key leadership role.

Most leaders that I even work with or people who want to promote into leadership struggle with, know, why don’t they see me as a leader or why haven’t they picked me or I’ve been in this role for eight years and I’m still not a director or I’m still not a VP in that position.

And it’s because they haven’t articulated that value, that unique promise of value that you can, that only you can deliver. And that’s what an organization is looking for. They want to understand, you know, they want to meet you where you are, not kind of drag you to where you need to go. And so you want to be able to do that.

And so that is why, as a leadership skill, even in the interview process, when you demonstrate that, it makes such an impact to people who are being interviewed. I’m sure it’s different when someone says, I don’t know, I’ll do whatever you tell me to do versus, no, here’s how I can help you.

Tim Butler:

Yeah, you definitely need to know what it is that you’re bringing to the table. You need to be able to indicate that you are a key contributor and articulate that to the point to where I call it the mantle piece whenever I’m talking to someone.

I’ll ask them first, well, tell me ideally when you’re thinking about what’s next, when you take into consideration everything you’ve done over 15, 20, 25 years, the good, the bad, everything in between.

Ideally, what do you want next to look like? And then I’ll ask them about what I call the mantle pieces, which are the trophies, because I want them to start thinking about how they can talk to that when they’re speaking to the hiring manager later on.

And then hopefully the panel where they can indicate, I did this, I did this, I did this, and not just, well, we did, we did, we did, because they’re not interested in we. They’re interested in, well, what did you do? How did you lead that? How did you execute? How did you overcome?

Whatever obstacles that occurred, how did you get everybody together in alignment on whatever the project was that you were delivering on?

Mac Prichard:

So I’m curious, Tim, as you’re preparing candidates for the meetings with hiring managers and executives, what’s the learning curve like when you take people through that process that you just described for us? Do some people instinctively do that, or do they struggle with it?

Tim Butler:

It depends on the role, I think. I just did a finance role recently and some of that was you ask one question, you wait for 10 minutes. Part of that is having, I don’t know if it’s not emotional intelligence, but just awareness that, you might want to focus on 30 seconds to two minutes in your responses. But the leader was actually giving them five to 10 minutes, but some were taking 15 to 20.

So it’s being aware of the question that’s being answered, following the instructions. But just knowing your numbers is one way to put it, because there was a leader where I didn’t have this conversation, my boss did. And she said, make sure you know your numbers when you’re sitting down with this leader. They didn’t, it didn’t go well.

Mac Prichard:

Ashley, what are your thoughts about the leadership skills you need and what matters most?

Ashley Nixon:

Yeah, I want to start by saying leadership is not something that’s conferred on you by a position within an organization. I love you can find hundreds of thousands of definitions of leadership, I’m sure.

But my favorite is a simple one, which is just helping others create value within the organization. And so what this really takes, most of you have already done this, right? What this really takes is knowing people, understanding their strengths and weaknesses, helping them figure out how they can leverage more of their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses in the workplace.

And so when we think about evidencing this and showing this off in our networking and our interviewing, it’s really about talking about how you leveraged those connections.

You leveraged that emotional intelligence, that awareness of other people, to help them be more successful, which made you all more successful. And so there is that prominent like, I, right, we need to have the confidence to commit to what we have done.

But part of that starts with realizing what you’re already doing that is so valuable for you, for your teams, for your organizations, for your family, right? These are things that we do everywhere in all of our roles.

And so realizing that you have leadership skills, and then it’s figuring out how I’m going to frame these to take me forward to where I want to go? How do I use my mantle pieces to really start advertising my strengths with this?

But realize fundamentally, leadership is not about telling people, it is not about demanding, it is about getting people to do the work in a coordinated fashion, which anyone who has ever tried to steer a rowing boat with someone they love knows how hard that is.

So when you think about talking at these meetings about leadership, make sure you’re centering the fact that it’s based off the relationships you create with others and your ability to drive them to be successful, not just yourself.

If we concentrate on the results, we oftentimes don’t get them. If we concentrate on the people, the results often come. And so making sure that that’s centered in your answers is where your leadership prowess is really going to start showing.

Mac Prichard:

Well, thank you. Well, it’s 10 minutes past the hour. We want to get to you and your questions. So my colleague Taylor is at the back. She, if you raise your hand, she’s got a mic. She’s collecting it right now.

And when you do ask your question, we ask you to stand up and just share your name. So who would like to go first? We’ll start here and then I see some hands in the back.

Attendee:

Hi, my name is Deborah Zwirling. And my question is, so I’ve been referred and recommended about a half a dozen times by people that know me. We’ve worked together in the past. And I’ve applied for a specific position. And it’s been more than a half a dozen times now.

And crickets in the past, that’s always worked. But I’m hearing from other people that are in the same boat or experiencing the same thing, where they’re not hearing anything. What are your thoughts on that?

Mac Prichard:

Who’s got a thought about that?

Tim Butler:

I can start. Candidate experience is something that, believe it or not, companies do care about, but they’re definitely not perfect. Around referrals, I know there is, it depends on the organizations, but there’s a term called white glove service that I think a lot of companies do aspire to, which is, my gosh, this is a referral. We need to make sure that we treat them with not kid gloves, but just provide white glove service.

And at a minimum, have an initial conversation. And if they determine, they being the recruiter, that good person, good skills, but I don’t think they’re right for this role based on the conversation that I’ve had with the hiring leader, they should at least be conveying that to you and the referrer. But yeah, it, admittedly, it doesn’t always happen.

Carol Parker Walsh:

Yeah, I would say so, you know, there’s a… You don’t want just somebody to refer you. You don’t want someone to say, I’m going to pass your name on to so and so. And then you really want to take charge of the process. So if there’s a referral, you want them to do an email introduction.

You want to first make sure they talk to the person, and then come back to you and say, ‘Yes, they are wanting to hear from you.’ And then step two is to do an email introduction, so that then you can pick it up from there and be in conversation.

With the referral person and then you ask them what do what do what do you need for me? Do you want a resume? Do you want to talk? I would love to be able to engage with you a little bit more so that you can get to know me. Well, you trust the person that referred the less build our relationship. So you’re not building it through someone else.

So you don’t want to have a passive engagement of someone like I’m going to refer you and then you don’t hear back from that person or the person that was a refer them to right so you want to try to take as much control of the process as you can and make sure that they have vetted and come back to you with a true referral and not just, yeah I know somebody, I know a lot of people, but it doesn’t mean that my relationship is going to turn into something. You want to make sure it’s a valid referral.

Mac Prichard:

Good. Next question or do you have anything to add, Ashley?

Attendee:

Hi, my name is Jillian. I’ve been told several times that resumes are dead. Is this true and if it is, what is replacing it?

Carol Parker Walsh:

So the reason, resumes, particularly the way people do them are really just like kind of a past record of what you’ve done. In this digital age, you really want to, as you know, to max out your LinkedIn.

You want a digital presence because that’s where people are gonna look you up. You can get a sheet of paper and it says one thing and then I spot you on LinkedIn or Facebook and it’s a whole other thing, right? Because that’s the first thing people do. When you meet people, you’re like, you go look them up, right? It’s the first thing we do.

We Google them and we try to check them out. And so you want to make sure your digital presence is powerful. That’s a living, breathing kind of document, if you will.

So it’s current because maybe you’ve posted something, so your thought leadership is there, what you may have recently been doing, taking pictures at this event and saying that you’re here because you’re looking for opportunities and connections. You know, you should, you know, be your own little influencer, you know, in a lot of ways, right?

That’s a living thing, and a resume is just kind of anybody can put those, know, chat, GBT, you’re writing a really good resume, but is that really you?

It’s the digital space that shows who you really are, and that’s where people really go to find you. So that’s why, from my perspective, I don’t put a lot of stock in resumes, I put a lot of stock in your digital presence.

Mac Prichard:

Well, Carol, are you saying that you would just forgo resumes altogether or have a resume but put your energy?

Carol Parker Walsh:

It’s like a business card, right? So yes, have one, so in case they need it for their system and the process, and you have something to give them, but don’t rely on it, is what I’m saying, as the only tool.

Mac Prichard:

Tim, you look at resumes all day, and you were talking about the value of optimizing your LinkedIn profile.

Tim Butler:

Yeah, well, I don’t like a resume is all day because again I have a fishing pole. Okay. I look for bread crumbs. You talk about the digital presence. Those are bread crumbs.

I’m looking for whatever it is that you have dropped out there on the internet and that gives me insight into who you are as a potential candidate. Because then I can then use that in my outreach and hopefully get them to think, gosh, how did he know that?

You said this wherever you spoke at this conference, whatever the case might be. The resume, though, it is a marketing document and most companies in 2025 still need it, even if it’s just because the comp team has to use it because of their processes and systems to sort of vet out what they’re going to allow for the offer that’s going to be made.

Because we’ll use a LinkedIn profile all day long. It’s just download the PDF copy, put it into the ATS, but then when you get to the offer stage, Comp Team is going to need the resume.

Ashley Nixon:

Some of this is dependent on what industry you’re in and what kind of organizations you’re looking at. I have, well I’m at university when we hire, it’s decidedly old school. Like we need resumes, we may look you up on LinkedIn, but that’s not what we’re talking about in our meetings about candidates.

So when you’re thinking about what organization, it will depend on the culture of that organization, the extent to which they use resumes. I 100 % support yes, have your LinkedIn as optimized as you possibly can, but don’t let your resume be an afterthought.

The nice thing is that because it’s not a living document, it stays consistent for long periods of time. So you don’t really have to do all that much work once you’ve got a really good version to keep it updated, but do make sure that that is the polished professional marketing document that you need it to be.

Attendee:

My name is Lisa, and thank you guys for being here and for sharing all your expertise. So I’m a software engineer. My question is for Tim. By the way, I’m probably number 507 on your ATS. Well, so I wanted to ask because nowadays I have been in my previous job for over 25 years. And so it’s been a different landscape now.

So nowadays, whenever I look for a job, it’s always the emphasis on tech stack, right? And I can honestly tell you that I cannot check all of them. Like I don’t meet all of the possible technology that they’re looking for. But all I can say is that I can learn them and given a chance to use them on a daily basis, I’m pretty sure that I have the ability to learn them. But to get through the machine,

Sometimes you kind of have to like put some flowers on your resume, maybe exaggerate a little bit. And it’s not the most comfortable thing for me to do, but at the same time it feels like I’m forced to do it. So when I get a chance to be interviewed, how do I bridge that? How do I come across as authentic?

And because I know for a fact that there’s more that I can give than just saying, I know in the back of my head what the syntax is for Python or something like that. So I would love to hear your thoughts on how I can move forward, especially if I’m having an interview and I just don’t meet all the technology stack that they’re looking for. Thank you.

Tim Butler:

Well, in the technical interview, that’ll be found out. So what I would say is think about before you even get to the application, what are you doing? Are you going to user groups for the different languages that are out there, whether you’re going to one of the Python groups that are available or if it’s a general back-end development group.

Whatever those things that you’re starting to see plastered over all the job descriptions that are out there, figure out what you can do to learn as much as you can if it seems like that’s the direction that a lot of the jobs are going for the required skills. The other piece is pushing away from the laptop again and it well, using the laptop to be targeted about the different companies that you’re interested in.

And reach out to the engineers. You’re an engineer. You’re going to talk to another engineer if they reach out to you, right? Yes. Do the same.

And we’d just give a follow-up. So this is the company before they require a certain number of years of hands-on experience under the law.

That’s yeah, I get that that’s when the internal folks the the engineers that you’re able to network with can come to your assistance. Do an informational interview with them, and they’ll be able to tell you real world what that’s like. They can become your advocate at that point, maybe the job that you’re looking at is

The person is a stickler and that’s absolutely what they want. There’s not a whole lot a recruiter can do. They may want to drop it down into nice to have, but the hiring manager says no, it’s got to be up here and must have. And they may say, well, what about comparable?

They’ll say, no, I need to have this. There’s not a lot that a recruiter can do in that situation at all, because they’re trying to progress and move the position to closure and satisfy what that hiring leader is looking for.

But if you’re networking internally with these different companies, get to know those engineers or anything, whatever, data analysts. And that’s how you can find out more about what it’s like internally. They can let you know that, we’re looking for somebody on our team. Let me talk to my boss and see if this is an absolute requirement for our team.

Okay, and speaking of networking, we’re gonna have a full 30 minutes and our panel’s gonna be here to chat with people one-on-one.

Yeah, I mean, sometimes I tell people like there’s nonprofits and other businesses that you probably can volunteer, learn it and then say can I offer you for free services the opportunity to do whatever they’re asking at the job? So that way you have real-world experience.

So, piloting and testing out, know, through networking finding people that maybe you can do whatever you’re supposed to know how to do for that job, and then get the experience in an unpaid manner actually help you get that experience.

Mac Prichard:

Okay, we’ve got time for one more question. Who do we have, Taylor?

Attendee:

Hi, I’m Maya. I actually have two questions. I’m so sorry. I picked another one along the way. You had mentioned taking in charge of the process. I’m assuming for that you already have to have built that relationship into what degree? Yeah. To what degree?

And then my second one is when it comes to negotiating, I’m not at a place where I’m comfortable talking about finances. So is it more impactful doing it through a phone or email? And those were my two questions.

Carol Parker Walsh:

Yeah, this is where you can ask who who find out who else may know them. So LinkedIn has those second, first, second, third degree connections. Maybe there’s somebody that you know that knows them, right? Maybe they’re not responding to you because they really haven’t built that relationship with you.

And so maybe there’s somebody that they know that you can say, hey, do you know Sally over there? Could you introduce me? Because I’ve been trying to reach her and she has that just happened to me. Somebody email me because they’re having trouble connecting to someone to see if I know someone. And because I know them.

I can pick up the phone and immediately make that connection. So I would say try to get around the person to see if you can have another connection.

Negotiation is a bigger thing. because I do a lot of salary negotiations. I mean, part of my job was negotiating when I was an attorney. So I do a lot of negotiations and train and coach women around negotiation. Women tend not to negotiate.

Women tend not to know their numbers. And women tend to be afraid to talk numbers. And so you have to get comfortable in that conversation to know your numbers, know what the market pays, know what you should be paid.

Just don’t take whatever number they’re handing you because this is a negotiation. Of course, I’m going to try to avoid you. And you have to know your walk-away numbers, too. So negotiations are little bit more complex, but you want to know your numbers. You want to spend some time knowing your bottom line, what you want, what you’ll walk away with, from, what you’ll compromise on.

And I’m a big proponent of salary and benefits are not the same thing when people are talking dollars don’t talk to me about vacation or talk to me about that have a gym membership that don’t pay a bill so you know I talk numbers different than I talk benefits and I really try to those conversations very separate.

When I’m talking about negotiation or supporting people in that process, but it does require a little hits but And you should always negotiate even if it’s a no it’s definitely a no if you don’t ask but you should always always, always, always negotiate. Everything’s negotiable, from my perspective.

Ashley Nixon:

At the very least, if you’re told no, you know that you got all the value that was there to be had, right? I also firmly always ask, you’re being hired by organizations to perform a function at an organization. This is your first opportunity to show them that you’re confident, that you’re competent, that you know your value, and that you will advocate for yourself, for your team, for good processes, et cetera. This is your first display of professional behavior to the organization.

And I offer that because I feel like a lot of people, particularly women, but a lot of people don’t want to ask for a raise or more money or more anything because they’re so worried about seeing like they’re greedy or that they’re not ungrateful, they don’t care enough about this job.

I always recommend starting with, I am so excited about this opportunity and next comes the ask, right? But always make the ask and see what’s available.

To just tell you how ridiculous this is, my brother made an ask after he’d signed a contract and then finally reached out over email and was like, could I have more? And they said, well, we can’t change your contract because you signed it, but here’s an extra sign-on bonus. So you just never know what’s going to happen, and it’s worth at least the ask, an ask before you sign the

Yes, yes. Let me just say, leverage, have leverage. Once the offer is made, don’t talk money, avoid money until the offer is made. Once the offer is made, that’s when leverage expands. That’s when you ask. A lot of people think that I’ll wait until I get the job, then I’ll ask. Leverage drops.

Carol, just quickly, I think I know the answer, but why do you wait until the offer is on the table? Why does that give you so much leverage?

Because once they’ve made the offer, they have spent all their time, energy, and effort and weeded out other people. And they do not want to go back to the drawing board. They want you. They want you to say yes.

The longer you take to say yes, the more it impacts what’s happening behind the scenes. Know, Jim is doing more work and, you know, or he’s ready to quit because he’s sick of doing that job. Or when are going to hire somebody? Right, so they’re getting the pressure. Their bosses are like,

When are you going to build that position? We’re losing money. So they are like wanting you once the offer is made. That’s when power rises and that’s when you negotiate. Do not talk money before that.

Two more things. One, yes, you are their first choice. You know that. Have confidence. They want you more than anyone else that they have met with, right? And so you know that you’re their first choice. Second, try to talk to the hiring manager.

The HR folks want to fill the role. They don’t necessarily care if it’s by you. The HR manager or the hiring manager is the one who wants you on their team. And so if you can get that to where they’re negotiating internally on your behalf, you’ll be and better off.

Mac Prichard:

And this is also a great example of leadership, isn’t it?

Carol Parker Walsh:

Absolutely, slow the process that once the office made they’re like when you decision by Friday you like I need a week. You know you you slow the process down so you are in that’s one time you have a massive massive amount of control in the process and you want to leverage it, not abuse it. I’m not saying abuse it but really think through and make sure that you know what you want and you’re leveraging that time in the process.

Tim Butler:

Real life, it depends. And will the business walk away? Absolutely. So, yeah, I mean, they’ll walk away. I looked at a Slack earlier today and Monday, we’d have it done. Let’s have the hiring leader text him. Let’s get him connected with them to talk before. So while he’s coming back from vacation on that long drive.

He can already have a conversation with the hiring, but I need it done by Monday. And I know she’s serious because she’s very decisive and she’s ready to move on, which is why I do have somebody as a backup that I’m talking to on Monday. So it depends. And in the fast-paced world that I live in, in tech, believe me, they’re not afraid to move on. But yeah, you can negotiate. You just have to know your value. Do your homework ahead of time.

And I will also say, if you’re talking to a sorcer, they’re your advocate. So we want you to get in the door. We get graded on how many people make it to the final. So if you get that far, we’re advocating for you. We get lumped in with HR sometimes. HR is different than recruiting. It behooves a recruiter to find and push forward somebody that is qualified for the job that they like. They’re rooting.

I tell people, I said, I’m handing you off to the recruiter now, but I’m over here on the sidelines watching it and rooting you on. And I mean it because I look at it this way. I’m good at what I do and I believe that you can do it. And if you can get in there in the panel and wow them, then hopefully you get the offer.

Okay.

Yeah, I do have to caveat. Most of the people that I work with are going for VPs or executive local positions, which has a little bit more, I think, room because it’s a bigger ask. So I think that’s right. It does depend. So don’t be like, here, I’ll say it.

Mac Prichard:

All right. So I want to continue this conversation in networking, so before we close, can everyone here connect with you all on LinkedIn, but they have to send you a note? Just can’t be a blind request, right?

Yes, all right, and you all are going to be here during the networking session. So we’re going to bring it to a close. Please stay. We’ve also got our booths, our career coaches, people from Willamette and from several professional groups, and we’re going to bring it to a close. Please join me in thanking our panel.

Thank you for listening to this bonus episode of Find Your Dream Job. If you’d like to learn more about our in-person events at Mac’s List, go to macslist.org.